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<p>Howie,</p>
<p> Signature Solar gives there dealers a Tech email address and
they are prompt to return communications, I've had several phone
communications with them also that mostly went well, a year ago I
didn't always get techs with a lot of experience and were less
than helpful. I haven't had any failures of any kind yet, they
tell me the BMS can be replaced in the field and I'm disappointed
there are Wrenches reporting warranty issues.</p>
<p> I've also worked with the Trophy Battery, they use high quality
Eve Cells, when you call the number on the website the owner and
designer of the battery answers the phone, Dan Keaton is great at
answering questions, the Trophy website has extensive lithium
battery information and battery manuals. The battery comes with a
10 year non-prorated warranty and the BMS is replaceable in the
field.</p>
<p> Carl Hansen<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2024-02-18 1:58 PM, Howie Michaelson
via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAHMeMs=g2YTLVEouMWX3_8nDPXFoOJzAoJNu06SW=SUXyE=_Eg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Carl,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">Thanks for the update.
That is encouraging!</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">My other major concern
at this point is all the very negative comments to be found on
the web about Signature's horrible, very bad, no good Tech
Support and service. It is true that the internet is littered
with disgruntled comments about anything and everything, but
many of these stories (including ones on the wrenches) are
fairly specific and disheartening. I assume by the fact that
you continue to install their batteries, that that has not
been your experience?</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br clear="all">
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Howie Michaelson<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at
3:16 PM Carl Hansen via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Hi Howie,</p>
<p> I've continued to install EG4 LL V2 batteries for
clients, I originally purchased a bank of EG4 V1's for my
own system to experiment with before recommending them to
clients, I quickly ended up with 7 clients with them and
all the installs are performing without issues, these are
all OFF GRID without comms between the battery and
inverter, I'm keeping them above freezing with insulated
battery box's and heating pads when necessary, Cooling may
be more of an issue in some outdoor shed installs because
of summer heat in central N.M. <br>
</p>
<p> One thing that came up that had me concerned was
Signature solar Techs started recommending 3 or 4 deep
discharge cycles, down to 20% SOC when commissioning the
batteries, this was so that the BMS could learn what the
normal operating range would be for the battery as to
prevent early low voltage shut down events, I thought this
was going to be too burdensome for off grid clients or for
me, a few clients didn't mind doing that commissioning
recommendation but most haven't done it and there hasn't
been any issues.</p>
<p> The EG4 LL V2 has a ten year prorated warranty, it has
UL ratings, it has fire suppression pads in them that will
melt down on top of the battery at high temps if they are
mounted in a flat orientation, I have a few clients with
the EG4 rack cabinet but most are mounted face up in the
original insulated L16 or Surrette industrial cell battery
box's, Signature solar has said this orientation will not
void the warranty or effect operation of the battery.</p>
<p> Carl Hansen</p>
<p> Hansen&Sun Electric 505 470-0770<br>
</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<div>On 2024-02-18 10:34 AM, Howie Michaelson via
RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">All, <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">Thanks for the thoughts and
feedback about EG4 and Lithium in general. I'm
disappointed to see the overall negative feedback
about EG4, but not overly surprised. I was hoping to
hear from folks who previously had decent things to
say about them (E.G. Peter Giroux, Carl Hansen) would
chime in with updated reviews. I have been seduced
into using relatively new products that promised to
improve upon "sliced bread" before, only to more times
than not, end up fruI'strated with wasted time and
reputation. <br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">For our work in VT, LiFePO4
batteries, so far, are enough of an improvement over
lead acid (particularly for Off-Grid), that if the
client is willing to spend the money, I encourage them
to go that route. There are certainly plenty of on
going issues with many of these relatively new
products, some larger headaches than I'm happy about.
On balance however, my calculus leans heavily toward
advantage Lithium. We can make work-arounds for most
of the immediate problems, and their documentable
efficiency and low maintenance (along with fewer holes
in my clothes) win the argument for me. </div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">I have yet to see a BMS failure,
but I'm sure I'll have the chance to solve that
problem. I'm also annoyed that the inverter sales
teams have chosen to market the new hybrid inverters
as compatible with Lead-Acid, because as has been
noted, as they currently are configured, Lead-Acid
management has been a mostly a slipshod afterthought.
There are several other areas they will need to focus
before I would deem the ready-for-prime-time. However,
as best I can tell, there is intense competition for
market share right now, so if enough of the installer
base pushes for these necessary changes, they will do
there best to accommodate us.</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">The areas I see needing
significant improvements:</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">
<ul>
<li>Rock solid BMS and and battery-inverter
communication (standard industry wide protocols?)<br>
</li>
<li>True Lead-Acid programming capabilities</li>
<li>More finesse with the AGS controls</li>
</ul>
<div>And, again, if anyone has recent positive reports
about EG4 equipment, I'd be happy to hear about them
on or off list.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"
class="gmail_default">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br
clear="all">
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Howie Michaelson</div>
<div>Sun Catcher<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 17, 2024
at 1:16 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Drake:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
prefer the UnigyII VRLA batteries. Full
river 2 volt L-16s are pretty good and they
allow one string configuration in larger AH
settings.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">I
agree that as features grow so does
complexity. However there is no substitute
for good remote monitoring and control. I
can understand much better the operation of
systems with easy access to historic data
and I save a butt-load of driving. I wish
the Outback and Sunny Island files could be
obtained remotely for better analysis.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;border-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentcolor currentcolor;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Drake Chamberlin
via RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 17, 2024
9:43 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4
Equipment</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I fully
agree that off grid solar has taken a major
downturn. Once the equipment became software
based, the reliability dropped. Sure, there
are nice features available with these cyber
enhanced systems, but the cost in
reliability makes being energy independent
off the grid hard to accomplish. </span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">There are
good reports on Samlex products. Has anyone
tried their new 120/240 split phase units?
Are they stack-able yet? </span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">As far as
batteries go, I'm pretty much in the Lead
Head club, especially for off grid. That
being said, lead acid batteries, especially
AGMs have gotten really expensive and it
seems the quality isn't what it used to be.
</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">What is
the best AGM battery these days? </span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Thanks,</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Drake </span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
<p><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div
id="m_990650591855502147m_-7017801314807952450signature">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">---</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Courier New""> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
id="m_990650591855502147m_-7017801314807952450reply-intro"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">On
2024-02-16 17:02, Michael Morningstar via
RE-wrenches wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote
style="border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(16,16,255);padding:0in 0in 0in 5pt;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in">
<div
id="m_990650591855502147m_-7017801314807952450replybody1">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">We
gave EG4 and Signature another chance
after promises from their dealer
oriented support department that we
could expect better service from them.
We had an EG4 BMS crap out a couple
months ago after only a few months.
Lots and lots of communications with
Signature and we still don't have a
BMS or replacement battery. It's been
a shit show with them. I think we are
going to remove them and install 3rd
party BMS's and find some use for
them. Maybe donate them. We've only
had luck with Schneider/Discover
pairings in closed loop. A large
system we did with Sol-Arks never
really worked in Closed loop, despite
Discover coming to the site. Most
likely it's a Sol-Ark issue, but we've
reached Sol-Arks technical expertise
limits. Even with Schneider/AES, there
have been some issues that are causing
me to re-consider Li for offgrid. I
just had a conversation this morning
with a long time off-grid pro and he
said the same thing. It used to be,
we'd install a wet lead acid bank and
then ten years would pass before
hearing from the client when it was
time for another bank. Sometimes
fifteen years. Our call backs with
systems over the last ten years, first
with a decline in equipment quality
and then the switch to Li are costing
us too much money and causing a lot of
heartburn for our clients. Rant Over</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">On
Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 12:57 PM
Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches
<<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Hi
All,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I've
searched the archives for info
pertaining to EG4 inverters
and batteries. The comments
have been mostly positive. I
have stayed away from EG4
until now in part, for the
reason the Michael Morningstar
suggested last June - that is,
they seemed very oriented to
the DIY market and not real
serious contenders in the
lasting marketplace. However,
I was at RE+ Boston this week
and was quite surprised to see
that the EG4 18k inverter is,
for all I could tell,
identical to the Fortress Envy
12k, in both physical layout
as well as menu structure. I
have very limited experience
with the Envy (having just
installed my 1st one last
week, in order to compare it
to the Sol-Ark 15). I don't
have any thoughts about it
yet, except that the font on
the screen is quite small and
the opening screen is not as
intuitive as the Sol-Ark, but
that might just take
familiarizing myself more to
the Envy (and/or the EG4).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">My
question is, for folks who
have had either the Envy or
the EG4 inverters installed
for a decent period of time,
what is your current take on
their functionality,
durability, and for the EG4,
the quality of support? Also,
what experience have folks had
similarly with the EG4 LLI
batteries? I'm not unhappy
with the Sol-Ark or in general
the Fortress eVault Max
battery, but there are some
attractive things about the
Envy and potentially the EG4
18k, and the price point and
seemingly smart configuration
of the EG4 LLI batteries are
certainly eye-catching. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I'm
also currently starting to
lean toward using Lithium
batteries and inverters from
the same manufacturer, as I'm
growing weary of the
mismatching firmware updates
that are causing somewhat
frequent issues between the 2
components. Although the
inverter/battery integrated
units (i.e. Sonen, Tesla,
etc.) don't seem ideal, since
the market is so volatile at
the moment. If one component
fails, I'd like the option to
replace it with a different
brand without having to
replace the other component as
well. Using the same manu
doesn't necessarily cut down
the problems, but it certainly
will help in the
troubleshooting process by
hopefully having less of the
"not my problem" or "we
haven't seen that problem"
responses from tech support. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I
really don't like making
forays into bleeding-edge
technologies, so I'm hoping to
gain some experienced insight.
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Thanks,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Howie
Michaelson</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Sun
Catcher</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">--
</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p
style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;min-height:22px"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Michael
Morningstar</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">Morningstar
Electric</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"">PO
Box 1494</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span
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Shasta, CA 96067</span></p>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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