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    <p>I would challenge that inspector's assumption.  It starts
      becoming precedent if you don't.  I have challenged many rulings,
      and have lived to tell the tale.  There's a process and you just
      politely go through the process.  Often just mentioning that I
      will challenge a particular assumption like "lead acid batteries
      aren't allowed", will get them to back down on the spot.  Getting
      solar trade organizations on your side to help with the process
      can add much needed weight.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Ray Walters<br>
      Remote Solar<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/17/2024 2:26 PM, Dan Fink via
      RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAF+3LneMGDnNiYi=jZdcNpnbtkngrBA5ecVAwOHXkkGn2XXa=A@mail.gmail.com">
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      <div dir="ltr">Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5
        for lead-acid not needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity
        exception for lead-acid in IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs
        is now insisting that ALL residential ESS, including lead-acid,
        even off-grid with no utility interconnect, must be UL 9540
        listed because they say the latest IRC says so. 
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>As you can imagine this limits our design options on the
          lead-acid side; as far as I can tell only BAE sells such a
          thing, and it's not intended or proceed for residential
          off-grid use.</div>
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                                    Fink</span></div>
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                                      style="font-size:12.8px">Owner,
                                      Buckville Energy Consulting LLC</span></div>
                                  <div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12.8px;line-height:inherit;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span
                                      style="font-size:12.8px">IREC
                                      Certified Instructor for PV and
                                      Small Wind Installation</span></div>
                                  <div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12.8px;line-height:inherit;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span
                                      style="font-size:12.8px">NABCEP
                                      Certified PV System Inspector</span></div>
                                  <div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12.8px;line-height:inherit;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(34,34,34)">NABCEP
                                    PV Associate</div>
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href="mailto:dan.fink@greendustrialtraining.com" target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true">d</a><a
                                      href="mailto:anbob88@gmail.com"
                                      target="_blank"
                                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      class="moz-txt-link-freetext">anbob88@gmail.com</a></div>
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style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12.8px;line-height:inherit;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(34,34,34)">970-672-4342</div>
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      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at
          1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <<a
            href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
            class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
          wrote:<br>
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        <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div dir="auto">To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery
            that is compliant to 9540 or 1973...    we are still trying
            to work out the kinks of these UL codes.   This what happens
            when people try to blanket fix a problem with one technology
            and apply it across the board without a full understanding
            of the different chemistries that are out there. 
            <div dir="auto"><br>
            </div>
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          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Feb 17, 2024,
              12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches <<a
                href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
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style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
              <div>A number of people have mentioned strict code
                compliance.  
                <div>How are lead batteries dealing with this? </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>thanks</div>
                <div>jay<br>
                  <div><br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div>On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via
                        RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
                        wrote:</div>
                      <br>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p>Chris;</p>
                          <p>I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for
                            off grid for all the same reasons you
                            mentioned, but I've just had too much
                            trouble, so I'm heading back to lead acid
                            for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans,
                            its a "look"..... <br>
                          </p>
                          <p>Seriously, you mentioned customers coming
                            back to a lead acid battery at 16 v; how
                            about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? 
                            At least lead acid can be recovered to some
                            extent.  I'm not married to either platform,
                            I just want to spend my customers' money on
                            the most reliable solution, and after having
                            both temperature related issues, and failed
                            BMS, lead acid is back.  Maybe when my
                            current lead acid installations need to be
                            replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very
                            important issues:<br>
                            1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field
                            replaced.<br>
                            2) On board heating system for below
                            freezing conditions.  </p>
                          <p>I think we're close, but definitely not
                            there.  <br>
                          </p>
                          <p>Also, with all the mention of various UL
                            listings, regulation needs to evolve to
                            differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+
                            chemistries.  LiFePO4 is inherently much
                            safer, but we're being forced to comply with
                            all the same regulations as the less stable,
                            more energy dense chemistries. <br>
                          </p>
                          <p>Ray Walters<br>
                            Remote Solar<br>
                          </p>
                          <div>On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via
                            RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div dir="auto">Howie,</div>
                            <div dir="auto"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto">The EG4 18K and the Fortress
                              Envy are both made by the same
                              manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K
                              and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak
                              for EG4, but I know that Fortress has
                              progressed from simply white labeling this
                              unit to doing a significant amount of
                              programming and additional integration,
                              specifically with regards to their
                              monitoring platform. </div>
                            <div dir="auto"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto">Personally, I have always
                              had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX
                              line was chintzy at best. Every
                              prospective client I have crossed paths
                              with that has called out EG4 equipment
                              thinks they know more and want it cheaper
                              because they watched a few YouTube videos
                              where unqualified DIY hacks free air
                              conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off
                              completely, and am interested in their
                              PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and
                              flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t
                              be surprised if they weren’t around in 5
                              years. I feel differently about Fortress
                              Power and although they have been a little
                              overactive in the inverter market, I do
                              believe that they are well intentioned and
                              that their products and business are
                              solid. </div>
                            <div dir="auto"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto">There has been some recent
                              LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will
                              agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP
                              had frequent issues with BMS and cell
                              failure, but all in all, LFP has been a
                              shining star in off-grid applications. I
                              say this having installed 100+ eVault Max
                              18.5 in strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure
                              there are phone calls and necessary
                              firmware updates (however never a single
                              BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
                              not having the heartbreaking conversations
                              of “when we came back from vacation our
                              48v lead acid battery bank was at 15
                              volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I
                              also don't like holes in my pants and
                              shirts or calls that CO monitors are
                              alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m
                              not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will
                              say that I am firmly in support of the
                              measurable improvements they have made for
                              my customers. Paired with remote
                              monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less. </div>
                            <div dir="auto"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto">Kindly,</div>
                            <div dir="auto"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto">Chris </div>
                            <div dir="auto"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto"><br>
                            </div>
                            <div dir="auto"><br>
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                            <div dir="auto"><br>
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                            <div><br>
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                            <div><br>
                              <div class="gmail_quote">
                                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
                                  Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink
                                  via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer"
                                    target="_blank"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
                                  wrote:<br>
                                </div>
                                <blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                                  <div dir="ltr">
                                    <div dir="ltr">The issue I'm having
                                      with EG4 specifically and
                                      Signature Solar in general is a
                                      scattershot approach to UL and
                                      NRTL listings. Those listings may
                                      not be important to various DIY
                                      folks of varying levels of
                                      "git-er-done," but listings are
                                      critical for my business. Some
                                      products they sell are Listed per
                                      NEC, some are not, and some EG4
                                      are listed, some are not. I
                                      recently contacted Signature Solar
                                      regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS
                                      modules and did not receive a
                                      satisfactory response,
                                      unfortunately a new off-grid
                                      client had already purchased an
                                      entire rack of them before
                                      consulting with me. Our county AHJ
                                      is very strict. I can't risk
                                      recommending or installing a
                                      system that would fail inspection.
                                      Here in Colorado they often even
                                      cross check the altitude ratings
                                      on all inverters. (sorry Schneider
                                      XW-Pro that I like so much, limit
                                      on your spec sheet is 2000m
                                      altitude)</div>
                                    <div dir="ltr"><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div dir="ltr">Signature Solar
                                      provided the usual NRTL stamp for
                                      UL 1741SA etc etc on the EG4 rack
                                      batteries, then also a UL 9540A
                                      testing certificate that they said
                                      should be sufficient, and it
                                      disturbed me that they did not
                                      seem to understand that UL 9540A
                                      is NOT a listing - it's a
                                      fire-resistance test that an ESS
                                      manufacturer can use as a document
                                      to help obtain their actual UL9540
                                      listing, and also gain exemptions
                                      to spacing and other
                                      requirements....but from my
                                      understanding it's NOT an actual
                                      UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540.
                                      When I inquired about that,
                                      Signature Solar stopped
                                      communicating with me.</div>
                                    <div dir="ltr"><br>
                                    </div>
                                    <div dir="ltr">I'm pretty sure my
                                      understanding of UL 9540 listing
                                      vs. 9540A testing is correct, but
                                      I would appreciate any input
                                      before again gently confronting
                                      both AHJs and manufacturers. </div>
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style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12pt;line-height:inherit;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-variant-alternates:inherit;font-variant-numeric:inherit;font-variant-east-asian:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12.8px;line-height:inherit;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Dan
                                                          Fink</span></div>
                                                          <div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12pt;line-height:inherit;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline">
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style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-variant-alternates:inherit;font-variant-numeric:inherit;font-variant-east-asian:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12.8px;line-height:inherit;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span
style="font-size:12.8px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont">Owner,
                                                          Buckville
                                                          Energy
                                                          Consulting LLC</span></div>
                                                          <div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-variant-alternates:inherit;font-variant-numeric:inherit;font-variant-east-asian:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12.8px;line-height:inherit;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span
style="font-size:12.8px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont">IREC
                                                          Certified
                                                          Instructor for
                                                          PV and Small
                                                          Wind
                                                          Installation</span></div>
                                                          <div
style="margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;font-style:inherit;font-variant-ligatures:inherit;font-variant-caps:inherit;font-variant-alternates:inherit;font-variant-numeric:inherit;font-variant-east-asian:inherit;font-weight:inherit;font-stretch:inherit;font-size:12.8px;line-height:inherit;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont;vertical-align:baseline;color:rgb(34,34,34)"><span
style="font-size:12.8px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont">NABCEP
                                                          Certified PV
                                                          System
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