<div dir="ltr">Hi,<div>yes I read Robins email, but the class T fuses are in series only with the large DC cable breakers (Heineman, Airpax, etc.) in the Outback GSLC. I might be missing something, perhaps again.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 3:09 PM Robin <<a href="mailto:Robin@midnitesolar.com">Robin@midnitesolar.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Ryan thinks it may be the classT fuses. We have a vibration issue when classT fuses are connected to CBI breakers.<br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 1, 2023, at 11:32 AM, <a href="mailto:bob@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank">bob@midnitesolar.com</a> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<br>
Hi Kirk. Did you receive the email that Robin sent to you ?<br>
<br>
You can measure things like, with your scope but you would want to
look at the current<br>
from the inverter to battery.<br>
<br>
You could also use your clamp meter and look at DC and AC. <br>
Set it to AC to view the ripple current.<br>
<br>
I will copy/paste what Robin and Ryan sent to you and our support
team below in case it didn't come through.<br>
<br>
🌜boB🌛
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 6/30/2023 7:55 AM,
<a href="mailto:ryan@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank">ryan@midnitesolar.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kirk,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Any chance this is the Class T Fuses
resonating from the PWM on the DC current? Feel free to give
me a call would love to discuss this further </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">207-416-2006</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> robin
<a href="mailto:robin@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank"><robin@midnitesolar.com></a> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 30, 2023 10:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar" target="_blank">kirkh@vermont.solar</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bob@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank">bob@midnitesolar.com</a>; ryan
<a href="mailto:ryan@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank"><ryan@midnitesolar.com></a>; James Parish
<a href="mailto:jparish@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank"><jparish@midnitesolar.com></a>; <a href="mailto:todd@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank">todd@midnitesolar.com</a>;
Michelle Neville <a href="mailto:mneville@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank"><mneville@midnitesolar.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Vibrations</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kirk, Although this is the first I have
heard of this, boB says he isn’t surprised. I am copying the
tech support group here in hopes we can all learn something.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We have been shipping these boxes for
about 8 years now and not a peep.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">boB says the ripple current is 120Hz AC
and with that many amps it is not surprising. I will check
with our metal suppliers and ask what the cost ramifications
are to add stiffening ribs to the cover and possibly other
surfaces.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I did this years ago on the Trace DR
chassis to give it strength, but the idea is the same.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I hate to suggest this, but can you epoxy
some ¾” x ¾” angle iron or angle aluminum to the inside
surface of the cover? Not sure about other surfaces as I
tend to fill them up with knockouts and busbars. I suppose
you could just span some unused knockouts though. Maybe even
add a couple more mounting screws towards the center of the
box.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We would be very interested in hearing
the results.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">boB says our Rosie may exhibit less noise
also as it will have less ripple. We are testing many Rosie
inverters paralleled so soon will be able to have this same
configuration tested although we don’t have loads large
enough to do ten Rosie’s justice. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I don’t want to change the enclosure to
aluminum for a couple of reasons, but we may have little
choice. Aluminum would not vibrate!</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">One reason is cost, the other is
fasteners, We would need to use press nuts instead of snail
shells. Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in
aluminum. It is too soft. Aluminum would not vibrate from
magnetic ripple activity though.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">OK, I will ask about changing to
aluminum. That would probably be less expensive than adding
stiffening ribs.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Let us know how it goes. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Then ask Ryan for a couple of free SPD’s
for your trouble.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Robin Gudgel</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">MidNite Solar</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 7/1/2023 9:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I'm going to first obtain access to an oscilloscope
to characterize and screenshot this phenomena, both before and
after any mitigation I do. </div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at
12:46 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> <br>
<br>
We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue
here is that the enclosure<br>
for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is
ferrous. That means that when the<br>
120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can
vibrate just like a transformer.<br>
<br>
Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple
than the newer HF transformer units<br>
but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well.
<br>
<br>
This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and
we haven't heard any complaints<br>
but maybe others have been silent on this. I am not
surprised at all that this happens.<br>
<br>
Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor
so when the whole enclosure forms<br>
around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in
a transformer. It is usually just<br>
lossy but should vibrate much less, if at all. <br>
<br>
There are other issues in switching to aluminum that Robin
mentions, here:<br>
<br>
<i>"One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would
need to use press nuts instead of snail shells. </i><i><br>
</i><i>Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in
aluminum. It is too soft. Aluminum would not </i><i><br>
</i><i>vibrate from magnetic ripple activity though."<br>
<br>
</i>He has some ideas to make aluminum work so we will try
those.<i><br>
</i><br>
Now, plastic could work. Just has to be real thick.
Darn physics !<br>
<br>
Damping can help, like Kirk tried (more can be done here
too). Keeping the cables<br>
together best as you can inside the chassis may help as well
but moving and routing <br>
the cables might also reduce the buzzing some more.<br>
<br>
That's the latest buzz from here.<br>
<br>
🌜boB🌛<br>
K7IQ<br>
<div>On 6/30/2023 8:45 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Ferrite cores can be used for the battery
cables to pass through to reduce common mode current<br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 30, 2023
at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32
kwh stack) into the combiner. They are paired and
within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for
80% of their respective distance.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each
respective inverter. They are paired (not twisted)
in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length.
Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present
due to computer issues.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is
in free air, no derating of current required. But
merely pairing the leads may be the issue.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist
the sets, but doing it from combiner to battery
cabinets is impossible.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And I'm wondering if this is really necessary
if the customer is willing to live with the issue.
What are the ramifications down the road?
Loosening of connections I suppose would be one.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 30,
2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Kirk</div>
<div dir="auto">As the batteries come up to
charge does the vibration subside. Are the
battery cables spun together "corkscrew like"
l have seen this correct DC noise. I have an 8
on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at
all, mine come in from each side of the
battery combiner, how is your install
configured, how is the cable length same close
or very short to very long some length is
better on FLA's due to resistance under load
and charge. More information may help with a
solution.</div>
<div dir="auto">Fun times solar</div>
<div dir="auto">NABCEP PV Inspector <br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu,
Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via
RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">All,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I am in the middle of
commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery
bank, connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw
inverter/chargers.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">For the DC combiner I am
using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes,
modified to mount class T fuses on the
positive bus, for both battery inputs
and inverter outputs.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">For starters, I set the
master inverter at a max charge rate of
20 AC amps, which equates to a DC charge
of about 74 A. All the other inverters
are automatically set to this charge
rate as well.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Turning the chargers on
one by one, I started to get quite an
audible vibration from the combiner box
at a combined charge of about 400 to 500
A. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So I took the cover off of
the combiner, which was vibrating
noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise
was from the cover not fitting tight.
But the The box itself is also vibrating
by feel.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I took the combined charge
up to 640A dc. This level of vibration
definitely increases with an increased
charge rate. And I am surprised because
after all, we’re not talking AC here
we’re talking DC. It almost reminds me
of a large AC transformer in its
behavior. The vibration did not seem to
be originating at the inverters, then
resonating to the combiner.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I can dampen the vibration
by adding a few things, but I’m
surprised that this is happening. All
connections in the combiner are
tightened properly. Ideas?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a name="m_2762377684880434116_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><b>Kirk Herander / </b></a><b><a href="mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar" title="Send an email
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><b>Owner|Principal,
VT Solar, LLC</b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><b><i>Celebrating
our 32<sup>st</sup> Anniversary 1991-2023!!</i></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">dba Vermont Solar
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</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a name="SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><b>Kirk Herander / </b></a><b><a href="mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar" title="Send an email to kirkh@vermont.solar; Send an email to kirkh@vermont.solar" style="color:blue" target="_blank">kirkh@vermont.solar</a></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><b>Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC</b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><b><i>Celebrating our 32<sup>st</sup> Anniversary 1991-2023!!</i></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">dba Vermont Solar Engineering</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">802.863.1202</span></p></div></div>