<div dir="ltr">Hi,<div>yes I read Robins email, but the class T fuses are in series only with the large DC cable breakers (Heineman, Airpax, etc.) in the Outback GSLC. I might be missing something, perhaps again.</div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jul 1, 2023 at 3:09 PM Robin <<a href="mailto:Robin@midnitesolar.com">Robin@midnitesolar.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Ryan thinks it may be the classT fuses. We have a vibration issue when classT fuses are connected to CBI breakers.<br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jul 1, 2023, at 11:32 AM, <a href="mailto:bob@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank">bob@midnitesolar.com</a> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
  
    
  
  
    <br>
    Hi Kirk.  Did you receive the email that Robin sent to you ?<br>
    <br>
    You can measure things like, with your scope but you would want to
    look at the current<br>
    from the inverter to battery.<br>
    <br>
    You could also use your clamp meter and look at DC  and AC.   <br>
    Set it to AC to view the ripple current.<br>
    <br>
    I will copy/paste what Robin and Ryan sent to you and our support
    team below in case it didn't come through.<br>
    <br>
    🌜boB🌛
    <div><br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <div>On 6/30/2023 7:55 AM,
        <a href="mailto:ryan@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank">ryan@midnitesolar.com</a> wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Kirk,</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Any chance this is the Class T Fuses
            resonating from the PWM on the DC current? Feel free to give
            me a call would love to discuss this further </p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">207-416-2006</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          <div>
            <div style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> robin
                <a href="mailto:robin@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank"><robin@midnitesolar.com></a> <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 30, 2023 10:47 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar" target="_blank">kirkh@vermont.solar</a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:bob@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank">bob@midnitesolar.com</a>; ryan
                <a href="mailto:ryan@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank"><ryan@midnitesolar.com></a>; James Parish
                <a href="mailto:jparish@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank"><jparish@midnitesolar.com></a>; <a href="mailto:todd@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank">todd@midnitesolar.com</a>;
                Michelle Neville <a href="mailto:mneville@midnitesolar.com" target="_blank"><mneville@midnitesolar.com></a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Vibrations</p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Kirk, Although this is the first I have
            heard of this, boB says he isn’t surprised. I am copying the
            tech support group here in hopes we can all learn something.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">We have been shipping these boxes for
            about 8 years now and not a peep.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">boB says the ripple current is 120Hz AC
            and with that many amps it is not surprising. I will check
            with our metal suppliers and ask what the cost ramifications
            are to add stiffening ribs to the cover and possibly other
            surfaces.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I did this years ago on the Trace DR
            chassis to give it strength, but the idea is the same.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I hate to suggest this, but can you epoxy
            some ¾” x ¾” angle iron or angle aluminum to the inside
            surface of the cover? Not sure about other surfaces as I
            tend to fill them up with knockouts and busbars. I suppose
            you could just span some unused knockouts though. Maybe even
            add a couple more mounting screws towards the center of the
            box.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">We would be very interested in hearing
            the results.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">boB says our Rosie may exhibit less noise
            also as it will have less ripple. We are testing many Rosie
            inverters paralleled so soon will be able to have this same
            configuration tested although we don’t have loads large
            enough to do ten Rosie’s justice. </p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I don’t want to change the enclosure to
            aluminum for a couple of reasons, but we may have little
            choice. Aluminum would not vibrate!</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">One reason is cost, the other is
            fasteners, We would need to use press nuts instead of snail
            shells. Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in
            aluminum. It is too soft. Aluminum would not vibrate from
            magnetic ripple activity though.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">OK, I will ask about changing to
            aluminum. That would probably be less expensive than adding
            stiffening ribs.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Let us know how it goes. </p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Then ask Ryan for a couple of free SPD’s
            for your trouble.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Robin Gudgel</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">MidNite Solar</p>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 7/1/2023 9:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">I'm going to first obtain access to an oscilloscope
        to characterize and screenshot this phenomena, both before and
        after any mitigation I do. </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at
          12:46 PM bob--- via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
          <div> <br>
            <br>
            We are talking to Kirk offline about this but the main issue
            here is that the enclosure<br>
            for the 2000A combiner is made out of steel which is
            ferrous.  That means that when the<br>
            120 Hz ripple current induces into the chassis it can
            vibrate just like a transformer.<br>
            <br>
            Low frequency transformer inverters are have higher ripple
            than the newer HF transformer units<br>
            but they have some AC ripple on the battery cables as well.
            <br>
            <br>
            This combiner is evidently been around for about 8 years and
            we haven't heard any complaints<br>
            but maybe others have been silent on this.  I am not
            surprised at all that this happens.<br>
            <br>
            Aluminum chassis has the problem that it is a good conductor
            so when the whole enclosure forms<br>
            around the cables, the aluminum can act as a shorted turn in
            a transformer.  It is usually just<br>
            lossy but should vibrate much less, if at all. <br>
            <br>
            There are other issues in switching to aluminum that Robin
            mentions, here:<br>
            <br>
            <i>"One reason is cost, the other is fasteners, We would
              need to use press nuts instead of snail shells. </i><i><br>
            </i><i>Snail shells and sheet metal screws don’t do well in
              aluminum. It is too soft. Aluminum would not </i><i><br>
            </i><i>vibrate from magnetic ripple activity though."<br>
              <br>
            </i>He has some ideas to make aluminum work so we will try
            those.<i><br>
            </i><br>
            Now, plastic could work.   Just has to be real thick.   
            Darn physics !<br>
            <br>
            Damping can help, like Kirk tried (more can be done here
            too).  Keeping the cables<br>
            together best as you can inside the chassis may help as well
            but moving and routing <br>
            the cables might also reduce the buzzing some more.<br>
            <br>
            That's the latest buzz from here.<br>
            <br>
            🌜boB🌛<br>
                K7IQ<br>
            <div>On 6/30/2023 8:45 AM, david quattro via RE-wrenches
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div dir="ltr">Ferrite cores can be used for the battery
                cables to pass through to reduce common mode current<br>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 30, 2023
                  at 3:59 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div dir="ltr">I have -15- sets of 4/0 cable (1 per 32
                    kwh stack) into the combiner. They are paired and
                    within .25 " of one another in wire cable tray for
                    80% of their respective distance.
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>The inverter to combiner sets are 2/0 for each
                      respective inverter. They are paired (not twisted)
                      in cable tray, anywhere from 10 -20' in length.
                      Maybe I can send some photos, but can't at present
                      due to computer issues.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I used cable tray because the CT-rated cable is
                      in free air, no derating of current required. But
                      merely pairing the leads may be the issue.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>I could rearrange the inverter cables and twist
                      the sets, but doing it from combiner to battery
                      cabinets is impossible.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>And I'm wondering if this is really necessary
                      if the customer is willing to live with the issue.
                      What are the ramifications down the road?
                      Loosening of connections I suppose would be one.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">
                    <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jun 30,
                      2023 at 12:40 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
                      wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                      <div dir="auto">
                        <div>Kirk</div>
                        <div dir="auto">As the batteries come up to
                          charge does the vibration subside. Are the
                          battery cables spun together "corkscrew like"
                          l have seen this correct DC noise. I have an 8
                          on 8 just like your 10 and l have no noise at
                          all, mine come in from each side of the
                          battery combiner, how is your install
                          configured, how is the cable length same close
                          or very short to very long some length is
                          better on FLA's due to resistance under load
                          and charge. More information may help with a
                          solution.</div>
                        <div dir="auto">Fun times solar</div>
                        <div dir="auto">NABCEP PV Inspector <br>
                          <br>
                          <div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
                            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu,
                              Jun 29, 2023, 8:19 AM Kirk Herander via
                              RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
                              wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">All, 
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto">I am in the middle of
                                commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery
                                bank, connected to -10- OB Radian 8kw
                                inverter/chargers.</div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto">For the DC combiner I am
                                using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes,
                                modified to mount  class T fuses on the
                                positive bus, for both battery inputs
                                and inverter outputs.</div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto">For starters, I set the
                                master inverter at a max charge rate of
                                20 AC amps, which equates to a DC charge
                                of about 74 A. All the other inverters
                                are automatically set to this charge
                                rate as well.</div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto">Turning the chargers on
                                one by one, I started to get quite an
                                audible vibration from the combiner box
                                at a combined charge of about 400 to 500
                                A. </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto">So I took the cover off of
                                the combiner, which was vibrating
                                noticabllly by feel. Most of the noise
                                was from the cover not fitting tight.
                                But the The box itself is also vibrating
                                by feel.</div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto">I took the combined charge
                                up to 640A dc. This level of vibration
                                definitely increases with an increased
                                charge rate. And I am surprised because
                                after all, we’re not talking AC here
                                we’re talking DC. It almost reminds me
                                of a large AC transformer in its
                                behavior. The vibration did not seem to
                                be originating at the inverters, then
                                resonating to the combiner.</div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto">I can dampen the vibration
                                by adding a few things, but I’m
                                surprised that this is happening. All
                                connections in the combiner are
                                tightened properly. Ideas?</div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <div dir="auto"><br>
                              </div>
                              <span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br>
                              <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">
                                <div dir="ltr">
                                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a name="m_2762377684880434116_m_-3927320148075040812_m_-7387271357251515889_m_3208520648572609474_m_-2406045469022114618_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig" rel="noreferrer"><b>Kirk
                                          Herander / </b></a><b><a href="mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar" title="Send an email to
                                          kirkh@vermont.solar; Send an
                                          email to kirkh@vermont.solar" style="color:blue" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">kirkh@vermont.solar</a></b></span></p>
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                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a name="m_2762377684880434116_m_-3927320148075040812_m_-7387271357251515889_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><b>Kirk Herander / </b></a><b><a href="mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar" title="Send an email to
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          <p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a name="m_2762377684880434116_SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><b>Kirk Herander / </b></a><b><a href="mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar" title="Send an email
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          <p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">dba Vermont Solar
              Engineering</span><br>
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</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><a name="SignatureSanitizer__MailAutoSig"><b>Kirk Herander / </b></a><b><a href="mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar" title="Send an email to kirkh@vermont.solar; Send an email to kirkh@vermont.solar" style="color:blue" target="_blank">kirkh@vermont.solar</a></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><b>Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC</b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt"><b><i>Celebrating our 32<sup>st</sup> Anniversary 1991-2023!!</i></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">dba Vermont Solar Engineering</span><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial;font-size:16px;margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">802.863.1202</span></p></div></div>