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<p>Wrenches,</p>
<p> I feel compelled to chime in here. Ten years ago, we
installed 24, Rolls 2-KS-33P, 2 volt batteries for the shop.
Though they were in a climate-controlled environment and maybe
went to 50% SOC a dozen times over 10 years, usually ranged
75-100% SOC, we had the first failure just before 7 year warranty
ended. Unfortunately soon after there were two more failures we
had to pay for, then most recently 2-3 more were very difficult to
maintain good SGs and were sagging more in voltage when loaded. We
tried several EQs and then deep discharges and hard and long
re-charges to try and de-sulphate without luck. So we recently
replaced the pack. We know how to care for FLA batteries, been
doing so since the 80's.<br>
</p>
<p> I'm not faulting Rolls/Surrette, Steve Higgins tried
to help, <i>maybe</i> I should take some responsibility but the
reason I am sharing this bad experience (I was expecting 15++
years from this kind of battery) is at some point after
installation I checked the date codes and found there were 5,
count them FIVE different dates, one or two of which were <i>more
than a year old</i> when purchased. Ouch. Another expensive
lesson learned. Hopefully Rolls has a better handle now-a-days on
their post manufacture supply chain. Do you think the different
distributors that sent their "back-in-the-corner" unclaimed
2-KS-33p's to my distributor to make up my pack had their 2V
chargers floating the batteries all that time? me neither.<br>
</p>
<p> Moral of the story: <b>Check date codes</b> on that
big beautiful pack of lead you're ready to load onto the truck.
I'm now making it clear to our distributor that I won't be loading
batteries on my truck unless dates codes match, which they did on
the replacement SimpliPHI's.<br>
</p>
<p> Bill</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
CA Lic 874049
Solar powered since 1982</pre>
<p></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/4/2023 4:42 PM, Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:4a6966e84ce50e6b7c40b126f219f99f@sti.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div id="signature">Hurts my head ! Agree that you will have more
trips to this house after the next one. This is most likely not
going to get you 2 more years. All of the wiring is good, clean,
and tight? Who really knows how long it could last? Probably
fine thru summer and fall.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Much better with the next L16 size up and 24 (2V) cells.
Lot's of capacity choices there from Rolls and others.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Almost Cheers time !<br>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: small;">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
<a href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank" rel="noopener" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a>
e-mail <a href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">offgridsolar@sti.net</a>
text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p id="reply-intro">On 2023-04-04 4:21 pm, Ray Walters via
RE-wrenches wrote:</p>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em; border-left:
#1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">
<div id="replybody1">
<div>
<p>So the 24 batteries are actually 72 individual cells that
are trying to charge equally, with essentially no BMS.
Its not just max strings, but max # of cells, and that's
double my maximum. </p>
<p>You mentioned they use it pretty hard, so that's the
other big part of how long L16s will last. If the
customer is barely using the available capacity, I've seen
batteries last closer to 10 years, but in this case, I
think the remaining cells are close to finished. I'm into
using batteries for as long as possible as well, but
customer and installer suffering come into play, as well
as the fact they'll use much more water at the end of
life, and cause a lot more corrosion damage.</p>
<p>Not to be a turd at the pool party, but its not
reasonable to plan on another 2 years of service. My
guess is that you will probably have more cells fail by
the time you return with the prorated warranty
replacements. Certainly rolling into the summer months,
more cells are going to start failing like pop corn. (Pop,
pop, pop)</p>
<p>Fortress is a good battery, but some of the programming,
(especially LVD) can be tricky with older inverters. I
had to use the aux out on the CC to switch off the
inverters. IF the inverters are Outback, they have a
remote switch, if its something else, you might have to
actually switch off a relay on the AC output.</p>
<p>Ray</p>
<div class="v1moz-cite-prefix">On 4/4/2023 2:45 PM, Daniel
Young via RE-wrenches wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite" style="padding: 0 0.4em;
border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin: 0">
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<div class="v1WordSection1">
<p class="v1MsoNormal">Thanks all for the advice. I
figured it was not worth trying on a different battery
brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I
researched it and asked my peers.</p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal">The client really uses the 3 x
strings they have and did not really want to go down
to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls
under the prorated warranty, and hopes to get another
2 useful years out of the bank before planning to
replace.</p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal">Already prepared him on the cost
of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he knows
roughly where he is heading.</p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal">Side note: I am in the camp of
trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 3 x
strings is the absolute limit, and not the best
option), simply because if a single cell goes bad, I
don't want a client with essentially nothing available
until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2
strings, they can make due at least. That'll go out
the window with Lithium though. Looking at Fortress
Power for the next battery bank for this client. But
we will see what changes in the market by the time
it's needed.</p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal">With Regards,</p>
<div>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;
font-family: Merriweather;">--</span></p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;
font-family: Merriweather;"> </span></p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;
font-family: Merriweather;">Danny Young</span></p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;
font-family: Merriweather;">NABCEP PV Installation
Professional #031508-90</span></p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;
font-family: Merriweather;">Engineering Team Lead<br>
Solar Energy Solutions</span></p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;
font-family: 'Merriweather Regular',serif;">Lexington
| Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati |
Evansville | Indianapolis</span><span
style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family:
'Cambria',serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;
font-family: Merriweather;">513-448-5176 (mobile)</span></p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;
font-family: Merriweather;">877-312-7456 (Main
Office)</span></p>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;
font-family: Merriweather;"><a
class="v1moz-txt-link-freetext
moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:danny@sesre.com" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">danny@sesre.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div style="border: none; border-top: solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt; padding: 3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><strong>From:</strong>
RE-wrenches <a class="v1moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"><re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></a>
<strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Dave Angelini
Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches<br>
<strong>Sent:</strong> Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34
PM<br>
<strong>To:</strong> RE-wrenches <a
class="v1moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a><br>
<strong>Cc:</strong> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <a
class="v1moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true"><offgridsolar@sti.net></a><br>
<strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [RE-wrenches]
replace part of rolls battery bank</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"> </p>
<div id="v1signature">
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;
font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">5 years old on
3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get
ready for a new bank.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;
font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">I have never
used more than 1 string for my clients and get
closer to 10 years life, so maybe there is better
advice out there.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;
font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="v1MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;
font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">Good Luck!</span></p>
<pre> </pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar</span></strong></pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">"we go where powerlines don't"</span></strong></pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a class="v1moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/</a></span></strong></pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">e-mail <a class="v1moz-txt-link-freetext moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:offgridsolar@sti.net" rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">offgridsolar@sti.net</a></span></strong></pre>
<pre><strong><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">text 209 813 0060</span></strong></pre>
</div>
<p><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family:
'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p id="v1reply-intro"><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;
font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">On 2023-04-03
11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style="border: none; border-left: solid
#1010FF 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 5.0pt;
margin-left: 0in; margin-right: 0in;">
<div id="v1replybody1">
<div>
<div>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">Hello
Wrenches,</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">Have
a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the
batteries have given up the ghost. Rolls
will replace them under the pro rated
warranty.</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">The
issue us, the client is wanting to replace
them with non Rolls batteries to save $.
They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA
batteries from a local battery house for the
same price I am going to get the new Rolls
for. And that also means they don't need to
pay for freight. The net result is that they
could save $4-500 by getting the batteries
locally. No freight, and no markup on the
batteries we provide (I can technically add
the lost markup back in as labor, we do need
to make something off of the 3hr one way
drive to swap the batteries)</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">Question
is, has anyone got experience mixing battery
brands like this?</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">3
x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the
replacements) both dead batteries are on the
same string.</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">Whole
battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">The
last rolls battery bank the client had
lasted them 10 years. (they baby the battery
bank to be sure, and take maintenance
seriously)</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">I
understand where the client is coming from,
but do not want to let them shoot themselves
in the foot, and I simply do not know what
the chances are of swapping in batteries
from a different brand. In my head, I don't
see a big issue, even if they are sub par,
they will likely just get older faster, and
fail around the same time as the rest of the
4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm unsure if
there are any more subtle issue that these
other batteries would cause.</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">Client
has been loyal for more than a decade, so I
want to give them a fair shake at saving
some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium
when the whole battery bank finally gives
out.</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;">With
Regards,</span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt; font-family: Merriweather;">--</span><span
style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family:
'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt; font-family: Merriweather;"> </span><span
style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family:
'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt; font-family: Merriweather;">Danny
Young</span><span style="font-size: 12.0pt;
font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt; font-family: Merriweather;">NABCEP
PV Installation Professional #031508-90</span><span
style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family:
'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt; font-family: Merriweather;">Engineering
Team Lead<br>
Solar Energy Solutions</span><span
style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family:
'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Merriweather
Regular',serif;">Lexington | Louisville |
Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
Indianapolis</span><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt; font-family: Merriweather;">513-448-5176
(mobile)</span><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt; font-family: Merriweather;">877-312-7456
(Main Office)</span><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
10.0pt; font-family: Merriweather;"><a
class="v1moz-txt-link-freetext
moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:danny@sesre.com"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">danny@sesre.com</a></span><span
style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family:
'Verdana',sans-serif;"></span></p>
<p class="v1v1msonormal"><span style="font-size:
12.0pt; font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
</div>
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font-family: 'Verdana',sans-serif;"> </span></p>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.(shipping)
5575 Genesee Rd. (USPS, UPS)
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.1925 Office/ 530.258.1641 Cell
CA Lic 874049
Solar powered since 1982</pre>
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