<html theme="default-light" iconset="color"><head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head><body style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" text="#000000">We've
transitioned from using supply-side
taps to using Feeder taps re: 705.12(B) almost exclusively.<br>
<br>
The advantages are numerous - and you just added one more - not needing
line side listing on your tap hardware.<br>
<br>
One of the most dangerous things I see looming in the present code is
the fact that supply side taps can be safe for backfeeding up to 160
Amps of PV on a standard 200 Amps service IF you are only grid-tie and
the current is canceling incoming current.<br>
<br>
But as soon as you add hybrid inverters and batteries. Now you are
adding significant battery charging amperage to the NEC 220 load calcs
that the service entrance connectors are based on.. Given that many
residences utilized the downsize table for service entrance conductors
you can quickly end up with a situation where your supply side tap is
overloading your service entrance conductors if pulling the inverters
full capability for battery charging and adding that to your normal
house loads.<br>
<br>
Feeder taps take care of this vulnerability in the present code. By
having a main 200 Amp breaker on both sides of the tap as per 705.122 B -
all conductors are protected for both the increased loads due to
battery charging as well as being able to still use the full 160 Amps
available for backfeed. And you don't have to shut down the utility to
install.<br>
<br>
Now you also add not needing to list your taps for supply side and you
can use the venerable ILscos again . . .<br>
<br>
Hope that helps!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<span></span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPKGs9RKnHGqwo58e=XqQ3j7sj85ePUpk0k0joyHigDC7eaTgg@mail.gmail.com"
style="border: 0px none ! important;"><div
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvHr"
style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid
rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">February
1, 2023 at 7:18 PM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvBody"
__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
dir="ltr">The requirements for power distribution blocks (PDB) to be
marked “<b>suitable for use on the line side</b>…” when installed
connected in that manner in wireways (Art. 376) and pull/junction boxes
(Art. 314) have been in the NEC® for quite a few cycles.<br><br>It looks
like the additions to 230.46 in the 2020 NEC® (PDBs and
splices/pressure connectors connected to service conductors must be
marked “suitable for use…”) coincided with this explicit requirement
being removed from 314 (though it remains in 376); this makes sense - if
you’re using a PDB on the line side, well you’re connecting to some
type of service conductors, so why not cover it in Art. 230 (maybe it’ll
also be removed from 376 in 2026).<br><br>UL 1953 allows for PDBs (UL
product code QPQS) to be listed for connection on the line side, load
side, or both, with those that can connect on the line side having the
marking mentioned above. Note that many have an SCCR of 10 kA unless
combined with the manufacturer-specified fuse type and size (or
smaller), and have minimum enclosure sizes that must be followed as
well. I have had a difficult time finding PDBs that are marked for use
on the line side while just using the internet (and have been too lazy
to pick up the phone thus far...plus it doesn't help that all PDBs have a
line and load side of the device regardless of whether or not they are
being connected on the line or load side of the service!).<br><br>Of
course many folks are not going to want to use PDBs due to re-routing
conductors to them (if even possible) and having to shut down the
utility supply to install them. Enter pressure connectors, and the
seemingly industry-fave insulation-piercing style; unfortunately I'm not
aware of any that are available <b>yet</b> with the proper listing and
markings as required by 230.46.<br><br>A colleague that works for a
large electrical product manufacturer passed this along:<br><br><i>“No
test existed for qualifying single polarity connectors suitable for line
side use when this was added to the 2020 code with the January 1, 2023
date for enforcement. A strategy and test procedure needed to be
developed and adopted by the UL CSDS working group. Not a speedy
process. Long story short, after developing a strategy, public comment
period and voting the <b>standard wasn’t published until August of last
year.</b> On average the testing requirements take about 90 days. To
further complicate matters, I was recently told that UL is still
developing the submittal process. <br> <br>I know that there are a lot
of companies currently testing products but until the UL submittal
process catches up, no one will be official. The <b>UL product code is
ZMWW</b>; as companies become qualified they should show up in the ZMWW
search. As of today, no one is listed. This leaves power distribution
blocks as the lone connector product rated for line side use. I know
that Bussmann has some PDBs rated for line side use."<br><br>So this
begs the question of whether or not NEC® 90.4(D) can be invoked (new
products not yet available at the time the Code is adopted...); PDBs
already exist, so no dice there, and it is likely that since they exist,
an argument using 90.4(D) in regards to pressure connectors/splices
will fall on deaf ears because, well, use PDBs."</i><br><br>Ugh. <br><div><div
dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div
dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div
dir="ltr"><div><br></div><div>Brian Mehalic <br>NABCEP Certified Solar
PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59</div><div>National Electrical
Code® CMP-4 Member</div><div>(520) 204-6639<br><div><br></div><div><div><div>Solar
Energy International<br><a href="http://www.solarenergy.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.solarenergy.org</a></div></div></div></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br>
<br><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br><div>_______________________________________________<br>List
sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>Pay optional member dues here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://re-wrenches.org">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
Address:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change
listserver email address
& settings:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>There
are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
other:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br><a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
rules & etiquette:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check
out or update participant bios:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div>
</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvHr"
style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid
rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">February
1, 2023 at 6:25 PM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvBody"
__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">As someone who does 75%+
supply-side interconnections, this kind of terrifies me. We have another
year of NEC 2017 here, so I have time to prepare, but I'm watching this
closely.</div><div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div
class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Meter
disconnects/reconnects here are difficult due to the lack of good
utility company cooperation and the requirement for an inspection prior
to reconnection, which leaves homeowners without power for many hours at
times. Otherwise, I would just pop in a 200A main disconnect between
the meter and main distribution panel and do a feeder tap for the
inverter output between the new service disconnect and the existing
distribution equipment. Unfortunately, that usually means bringing
grounding electrodes and conductors up to current standards, but that's
how we would be forced to comply if this splice/tap rule comes into
effect here and there are no suitable products available.</div><div><div
dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div
dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Side note: 200A 2-pole
fusible disconnects are all but impossible to get here. Even 200A main
breaker enclosures are very hard to find. Hurricane Ian didn't help that
with thousands of people who had their service equipment under water...
It has been a challenge.</div><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br>Jason
Szumlanski<div><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Principal
Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group</span><br
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">NABCEP
Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)</span><br
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span
style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Florida
State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956</span></div></div></div></div><br></div><br></div>
<br><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br><div>_______________________________________________<br>List
sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>Pay optional member dues here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://re-wrenches.org">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
Address:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change
listserver email address
& settings:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>There
are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
other:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br><a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
rules & etiquette:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check
out or update participant bios:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div>
</div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvHr"
style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid
rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">August Goers via RE-wrenches</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">January
31, 2023 at 7:56 PM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvBody"
__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
dir="ltr">Hi Wrenches -<div><br></div><div>Occasionally we will do
supply side connection for our PV systems. As of 1/1/2023 in CA, we
follow the 2020 NEC 705.11 Supply-Side Source Connections section.
Recently, an inspector asked us to comply with the following:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>When
we reached out to one supplier of insulation piercing connectors
(ILSCO), they responded: "We are still in testing, I just checked and
from what I see there are no products listed for this new requirement
yet by any manufacturer."</div><div><br>Has anyone bumped into this
before and/or have any proposed solutions?<br><br>Best, August</div><div>Luminalt</div></div>
<br><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br><div>_______________________________________________<br>List
sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>Pay optional member dues here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://re-wrenches.org">http://re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
Address:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change
listserver email address
& settings:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>There
are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
other:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/">https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/</a><br><a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
rules & etiquette:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check
out or update participant bios:<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">http://www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
</body></html>