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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head><body text="#000000">Hi Esteemed Wrenchies,<br>
<br>
Love this discussion.<br>
<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">It is clear to me after many years of
watching this that the industry needs to have an Emergency Shutdown
standard that includes an emergency shutdown of the </span><span
style="font-weight: bold;">BMS of every battery as well as the
inverter's circuits including MPPTs if all all-in-one.</span><br>
<br>
We are pushing now for all battery and inverter manufacturers to include
this feature in their inverter communications so that if the inverter
emergency shutdown pins are shorted -every battery shuts down.<br>
<br>
This would avoid the ridiculous requirement of every battery cable being
on a relay/contactor or bringing it to the outside of the house!<br>
<br>
<br>
<span>
</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMUFgmXKkh224UU1FW3XT6SUrsCVh+aD2NHjHGg=qdbLSK+nVQ@mail.gmail.com"
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<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">January
30, 2023 at 5:08 PM</span></font></div> </div></div>
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<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div
dir="auto">Wrenches.<div dir="auto">You might want to consider turning
off the inverter as a solution to turning off the batteries, we have
this feature as part of our installs with outback real simple then no
chance of AC anywhere, Not going to pop a CC, no chance of run on and it
has passed every time. Just a thought that's a safe solution. With
Outback you just have to turn off the master nothing else. </div><div
dir="auto">"Fun time in a crazy world"</div></div><br>
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rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">January
30, 2023 at 10:54 AM</span></font></div> </div></div>
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__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;"><meta
http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Hey folks -
love the Code, hate it, don’t care about it or follow it: it doesn’t
matter to me. But if you want to change it you have to realize it is a
process with rules and procedures, and posting on this list that “the
NEC” should immediately “issue a memo” to do what you want or change
what you don’t like has ZERO effect. <br><br><div dir="ltr">Brian</div><div
dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 30, 2023, at 4:47 AM,
Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote
type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p><font size="4">I don't think the discussion has forked at all. A
solution to this problem, and it is the best solution all things
considered, including firefighter exposure to 10 ft of
conductors that I have a hard time imaging them being exposed
to, is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY indicating that
this section of the code is no longer to be considered a
requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this
requirement.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4">The other solutions discussed would only work for
a few configurations realistically and would introduce more
danger. Chris<br>
</font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller
via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">James,
Brian and others:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thank
you all for the lively discussion. I am always interested
in my colleague’s perspectives and this has been
illuminating.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
appears to me the discussion has forked: One topic is how
to deal with the reality of the new code regarding a very
narrow scenario: ESS inside of a residence. The other topic
is: has the NEC evolved to be overly restrictive without
factual basis?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regarding
the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must
provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage
systems located in one or two family homes if the battery
voltage exceeds 60 VDC. There are very few areas that do
not adopt the NEC. If you install ESS you will eventually
have to deal with this code requirement one way or another.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Due
to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local
building departments, some of you may be able to skirt this
requirement. This is great until something happens. If
your non-compliant installation causes a loss, you will end
up in the defendants chair, not the building inspector.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Here
is how I approach these compliance conundrums: If I could
argue the code does not apply or there is a good reason to
waive the requirement; if the building official agrees; if I
feel the installation is really and truly safe without
meeting the requirement—only then could I proceed without
the disconnect. Otherwise I am going to have to find a way
to comply.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As
contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day:
What is safe enough for my clients? If any of you think you
know more than the people who write the codes, then install
what you can get away with and keep your fingers crossed. I
am not willing to live like that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regarding
the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly
scare-mongering NFPA? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What
is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are
trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is
trying to protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an
earthquake happens or a dump truck runs into your house,
etc.). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">When
California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters,
I got my feelings hurt because I was losing business and I
did not understand what it takes to fight a house fire. I
spoke with a few fire fighters and learned about roof and
wall venting and how it is affected by prevailing winds. I
came around to appreciate there is a real need for rooftop
fire setbacks. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into
a wall with a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage
conductors in or on that wall. This code requirement for
battery disconnecting means is fundamentally sensible. That
ends the discussion for me.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Oh,
yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing: Does anyone
have any factual data to share on this? Regardless of that,
does it really matter if the charge controller is saved but
the house burns down?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
islanding thing: To be compliant, all ungrounded battery
conductors need to be disconnected. This includes the
charge controller circuit(s). With the charge controllers
and inverters disconnected from the batteries and from each
other there cannot be DC “islanding”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
house flooding thing: At the surface, it appears you have a
choice of disasters: flood or fire. I submit that fire is
more destructive (I don’t think many people have died from a
ruptured water pipe). I don’t think it has to be either
or: Find a way to provide emergency power to freeze
protection devices with that disconnect waived or under key
in cooperation with the fire department. This may mean the
batteries need to remain connected. Put those leads in
metal raceway and mark their locations from the outside.
Work with building and fire officials. Limit your
liability.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks
again to all of you for the discussion. I know what I need
to do.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William
Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
James Jarvis [mailto:<a href="mailto:jj@aprsworld.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jj@aprsworld.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 28, 2023 7:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian Mehalic<br>
<b>Cc:</b> RE-wrenches; <a
href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">william@millersolar.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian and William,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">With all due respect, I think your
geographical location of California may be limiting in
your understanding of the implications of local power
security. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Where I am in Minnesota and where I
work in Alaska, loss of power and backup power can have
very expensive consequences. When it is -30F outside and
howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours before
their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours
after that pipes start to freeze and break. Pressurized
water then starts to spray everywhere and then things can
very quickly run into six-figure dollars amounts of
damage. So one way of reducing this risk is by installing
an ESS.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Around here, prior to the latest NEC,
we didn't have exterior disconnects available for anyone
to shut off power. We still don't for businesses. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My point is that NEC is mandating that
there be zero security of a buildings electrical systems
by requiring publicly accessible disconnects on backup
systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there could be
slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or
access controlled disconnects. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">William: I also disagree with your
premise that you'll test the battery disconnect system
after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You
had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT controllers
can and do blow up when they lose their voltage reference
(battery) under load. And removing the battery from the
circuit does allow the charge controllers to island with
the inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a
telecom customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars
of damage when their battery became disconnected. If you
are unwilling to test it at full load, I'd guess you know
that the whole concept is a dumb idea.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-James Jefferson Jarvis<br>
APRS World, LLC<br>
+1-507-454-2727</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://www.aprsworld.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.aprsworld.com/</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian
Mehalic <<a href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">brian@solarenergy.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Every single house I’ve looked at in
my town has a breaker panel with a main service
disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in
many cases we are well beyond worrying about someone
“flicking your switch!”</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">In
fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect
requirement for stationary standby batteries
[480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and two-family
dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for
an emergency disconnect for services on those same
one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian Mehalic</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On
Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via
RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It would be nice if the
decision was up to the owner / occupant of the
property. I, for one, do not want any random
person to be able to turn off my house or
business with the flick of a switch. I feel
strongly that there is far too much fear
mongering in NEC with relation to renewable
energy.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-James Jefferson
Jarvis<br>
APRS World, LLC<br>
+1-507-454-2727</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://www.aprsworld.com/" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.aprsworld.com/</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at
6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Esteemed wrenches:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well if my house is on
fire and the entry of fire responders is
delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose
having the disconnect. I can worry about the
charge controllers later. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Others may prioritize
their charge controller over their homes…</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Put a cable-tie lock in
the closed position to discourage kids from
messing with it. Test it only after dark. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">William</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 28, 2023
at 2:32 PM William Bryce <<a
href="mailto:wlbryce@pineridgeproducts.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wlbryce@pineridgeproducts.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One thing that no
one is talking about is what happens
to the MPPT charge controllers when
the Battery Disconnect trips when
the charge controllers are under
full load. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Many will blow
up. Try turning off the battery
breaker on a SolaArk when the
charge controllers are maxed, and
see if you get lucky.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 28,
2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via
RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Jeremy:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks
for posting the code
references for those that
had never looked them up.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Chris:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What
do you mean by “</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">a
disconnect for AC wiring,
not specific to which or
both panel types”</span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">All:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Code
references are handy when
receiving edicts from
building officials, but not
required, IMHO, for two
reasons: The contractor
should already be versed in
the codes and, building
departments can mandate
their own requirements above
and beyond the code.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
may seem redundant to
require an AC disconnect for
premise wiring as well as a
DC battery disconnect. In
most cases if you disconnect
the inverter from the
batteries the AC power goes
off. However if the
generator is running at the
time, some battery inverters
can operate when
disconnected from
batteries. So to completely
de-energize all components
of an off-grid home you need
to disconnect the generator
and the battery leads.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In
this case the home is
required to have fire
sprinklers. There is
pressure pump to provide
flow to these fire
sprinklers-- said pump being
powered by the
inverter/battery system. I
am going to apply for a
waiver to remove the DC
disconnect requirement on
the grounds that the
pressure pump is essential
fire suppression equipment.
Instead I will propose to
supply an AC disconnect
(meeting all requirements
for accessibility and
marking) that will
disconnect all premise
wiring except the pressure
pump. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">By
the way, I will of course be
trying to apply the logic
that the voltage
specification is for nominal
battery voltage and this
project having a nominal 48
volt bank does not require
the battery disconnect.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
will let the group know what
response I receive.
Regardless of how this works
in this jurisdiction, I
think these are both valid
arguments worth trying in
any jurisdiction requiring
the battery disconnect.
Some officials are amenable
to dialog and negotiation
and some are less so.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William
Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA
93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy
Rodriguez via
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
January 28, 2023 10:12
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>;
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jeremy
Rodriguez<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[RE-wrenches] Remote
battery disconnects</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span
style="color:blue">2020
Code Language:</span></strong></p>
<p><em><b><span
style="color:black">480.7
DC Disconnect Methods.</span></b></em></p>
<p><em><b><span
style="color:black">(A)
Disconnecting Means.</span></b></em><b><i><span
style="color:black"> </span></i></b><em><span style="color:black">A
disconnecting means
shall be provided for
all ungrounded
conductors derived from
a stationary battery
system with a voltage
over 60 volts dc. A
disconnecting means
shall be readily
accessible and located
within sight of the
battery system.</span></em></p>
<p><em><b><span
style="color:black;background:#cccccc">N</span></b></em><b><i><span
style="color:black"> <em>(B)
Emergency
Disconnect.</em> </span></i></b><em><span
style="color:black">For
one-family and
two-family dwellings, a
disconnecting means or
its remote control for a
stationary battery
system shall be located
at a readily accessible
location outside the
building for emergency
use. The disconnect
shall be labeled
“EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.</span></em></p>
<p><b><i><span
style="color:black;background:#cccccc">N</span><span style="color:black"> <em>(C)
Disconnection of
Series Battery
Circuits.</em> </span></i></b><em><span
style="color:black">Battery
circuits exceeding 240
volts dc nominal between
conductors or to ground
and subject to field
servicing shall have
provisions to disconnect
the series-connected
strings into segments
not exceeding 240 volts
dc nominal for
maintenance by qualified
persons. Non-load-break
bolted or plug-in
disconnects shall be
permitted.</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<div
id="m_7115390210110525282m_-5127136963893056115m_4094476521578825074m_-1017373149271638466AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Jeremy
Rodriguez </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Solar
Installation / Design</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">All
Solar, Inc. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">1453
M St. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Penrose
Colorado 81240</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Sent by
Jeremy's iPhone.
Sorry for typos
and shorthand. </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On
Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28 AM,
Christopher Warfel via
RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""></span> </p>
<p><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">Seems
confusing that the AHJ
is requiring a
disconnect for AC
wiring, not specific
to which or both panel
types, and then a dc
disconnect with no
code reference. Was
trying to convey a
reasonable, safe
approach. A lot of
bad information from
fire department solar
consultants making a
lot of money fear
mongering, which has
led to this type of
situation. Chris</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
1/27/2023 3:35 PM,
William Miller via
RE-wrenches wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Glenn:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As
I wrote, a DC
disconnect is
required. Here is
an excerpt from
the Q&A with
the building
official:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white">4.</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white">Will
you be requiring
an external
disconnect to
disconnect the AC
output of the
inverter system
from premise
wiring?</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#c82613;background:white">Yes,
as required per
230.85</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white">5.</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white">Will
you be requiring
an external
disconnect to
disconnect
batteries from the
inverters?</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#c82613;background:white">Yes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If
the DC disconnect
was not required I
would not be
wasting everyone’s
time with my
post. I try to be
careful about
that, researching
on my own before
posting and trying
to make my
questions very
clear. I also try
not to embarrass
myself with dumb
questions, but
that does happen
occasionally…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road,
Atascadero, CA
93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches
[mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf
Of </b>Glenn
Burt via
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Friday,
January 27,
2023 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>
William Miller
via
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Cc:</b>
Glenn Burt<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[RE-wrenches]
Remote battery
disconnects</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Does
the AHJ really
want the
batteries
disconnected
from
conductors, or
does he really
just want the
inverters to
stop operating
and producing
AC within the
house?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Obviously
there is a big
difference
here and it
may be
changing as
the code
evolves.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">-Glenn</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Sent
from my
'smart'phone,
so please
excuse typos
and spelling
errors.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="m_7115390210110525282m_-5127136963893056115m_4094476521578825074m_-1017373149271638466LGEmailHeader">
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">------
Original
message------</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">William Miller via RE-wrenches</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Date:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">To:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">RE-wrenches;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Cc:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">William Miller;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Friends:</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">We
have a
large-ish
residential
off-grid
system install
coming up.
The AHJ has
said they will
require a
remote battery
disconnect. I
suspect there
will be fire
sprinkler
controls and a
pressure pump
that would
become
inoperable if
this system
were engaged.
In this case
we will apply
for a waiver.</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
last time this
was discussed
here as far as
I can find was
October of
2020. At that
time no one
suggested any
specific
battery
disconnect
equipment. </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">To
further
clarify my
needs: There
will be 4 or 5
Radian 8048
inverters (5
or 6 4/0
battery
circuits,
~350A each)
and two 175
amp PV
recombiner
outputs. That
is 6 poles of
high amperage
DC
disconnects.
</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
battery array
will be either
a UnigyII VRLA
or a lithium
of a brand yet
to be
determined.
In the case of
lithium we
will look for
a system that
can remotely
enable a BMS
shutdown. In
the case of a
VRLA
lead-acid, we
will not have
that luxury.</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I
have done some
considerable
research and
have not found
viable, high
amperage,
remotely
activated
shutdown
equipment.</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I
am wondering
what hardware
others may be
using to
achieve remote
battery
disconnecting
in these types
of cases..</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">William</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">17395
Oak Road,
Atascadero, CA
93422</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a
href="tel:805-438-5600" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">805-438-5600</a></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"> </p></blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
William Miller<br>
Miller Solar.com<br>
895-438-5600<br>
<a href="http://www.millersolar.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></p>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</pre>
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<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta
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</div></blockquote><br><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br><meta
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type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>List
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class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br><pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvHr"
style="margin:30px 25px 10px 25px;"><div
style="width:100%;border-top:2px solid
rgba(146,154,163,0.7);padding-top:10px;"> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:49%;">
<a style="color:#485664
!important;padding-right:6px;font-weight:500;text-decoration:none
!important;" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches</a></div> <div
style="display:inline-block;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:middle;width:48%;text-align:
right;"> <font color="#909AA4"><span style="padding-left:6px">January
30, 2023 at 6:46 AM</span></font></div> </div></div>
<div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" class="__pbConvBody"
__pbrmquotes="true"
style="color:#909AA4;margin-left:24px;margin-right:24px;">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<p><font size="4">I don't think the discussion has forked at all. A
solution to this problem, and it is the best solution all things
considered, including firefighter exposure to 10 ft of
conductors that I have a hard time imaging them being exposed
to, is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY indicating that
this section of the code is no longer to be considered a
requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this
requirement.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4">The other solutions discussed would only work for
a few configurations realistically and would introduce more
danger. Chris<br>
</font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller
via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<br><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br><div>_______________________________________________<br>List
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