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<p><font size="4" face="Arial">Another point is that the tougher the
code requirements, the more DIY folks will just do it on their
own with little regard for the code at all. Already in
Colorado, most solar companies won't even touch off grid because
of the code complications. That just puts more folks off grid
with horribly dangerous systems that don't have disconnects at
all, much less remote accessible disconnects. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Arial">The 2nd thing that happens, is that
many of those potential off grid customers may then decide to go
On grid because of the overly complicated requirements. Those
power lines being extended into remote areas, cause many of the
forest fires devastating California and Colorado. I think if
the NFPA pulled back to consider the overall fire safety of the
entire country, they would realize that off grid systems are
better than extending the grid. I think an off grid system
wired to NEC 2008 is a reasonable combination of safety
requirements. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Arial">We need reasonable exceptions to
these rules, and we need the code to quit changing so
dramatically every cycle. <br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4" face="Arial">Ray Walters<br>
Remote Solar </font><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/30/2023 4:46 AM, Christopher
Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:f00de921-2224-e7d8-c831-07dcae320793@entech-engineering.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p><font size="4">I don't think the discussion has forked at all.
A solution to this problem, and it is the best solution all
things considered, including firefighter exposure to 10 ft of
conductors that I have a hard time imaging them being exposed
to, is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY indicating
that this section of the code is no longer to be considered a
requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this
requirement.<br>
</font></p>
<p><font size="4">The other solutions discussed would only work
for a few configurations realistically and would introduce
more danger. Chris<br>
</font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller
via RE-wrenches wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:263c2277d171e112961f21d10c6e14f4@mail.gmail.com">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">James,
Brian and others:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thank
you all for the lively discussion. I am always interested
in my colleague’s perspectives and this has been
illuminating.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
appears to me the discussion has forked: One topic is how
to deal with the reality of the new code regarding a very
narrow scenario: ESS inside of a residence. The other
topic is: has the NEC evolved to be overly restrictive
without factual basis?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regarding
the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must
provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage
systems located in one or two family homes if the battery
voltage exceeds 60 VDC. There are very few areas that do
not adopt the NEC. If you install ESS you will eventually
have to deal with this code requirement one way or
another.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Due
to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local
building departments, some of you may be able to skirt
this requirement. This is great until something happens.
If your non-compliant installation causes a loss, you will
end up in the defendants chair, not the building
inspector.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Here
is how I approach these compliance conundrums: If I could
argue the code does not apply or there is a good reason to
waive the requirement; if the building official agrees; if
I feel the installation is really and truly safe without
meeting the requirement—only then could I proceed without
the disconnect. Otherwise I am going to have to find a
way to comply.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As
contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day:
What is safe enough for my clients? If any of you think
you know more than the people who write the codes, then
install what you can get away with and keep your fingers
crossed. I am not willing to live like that.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Regarding
the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly
scare-mongering NFPA? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What
is interesting here is that while most electrical codes
are trying to prevent house fires, this particular section
is trying to protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or
an earthquake happens or a dump truck runs into your
house, etc.). </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">When
California first adopted roof clearances for fire
fighters, I got my feelings hurt because I was losing
business and I did not understand what it takes to fight a
house fire. I spoke with a few fire fighters and learned
about roof and wall venting and how it is affected by
prevailing winds. I came around to appreciate there is a
real need for rooftop fire setbacks. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut
into a wall with a demo saw if there are energized, high
amperage conductors in or on that wall. This code
requirement for battery disconnecting means is
fundamentally sensible. That ends the discussion for me.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Oh,
yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing: Does anyone
have any factual data to share on this? Regardless of
that, does it really matter if the charge controller is
saved but the house burns down?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
islanding thing: To be compliant, all ungrounded battery
conductors need to be disconnected. This includes the
charge controller circuit(s). With the charge controllers
and inverters disconnected from the batteries and from
each other there cannot be DC “islanding”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
house flooding thing: At the surface, it appears you have
a choice of disasters: flood or fire. I submit that fire
is more destructive (I don’t think many people have died
from a ruptured water pipe). I don’t think it has to be
either or: Find a way to provide emergency power to
freeze protection devices with that disconnect waived or
under key in cooperation with the fire department. This
may mean the batteries need to remain connected. Put
those leads in metal raceway and mark their locations from
the outside. Work with building and fire officials.
Limit your liability.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks
again to all of you for the discussion. I know what I
need to do.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William
Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span style="color:blue">www.millersolar.com</span></a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
James Jarvis [mailto:<a href="mailto:jj@aprsworld.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">jj@aprsworld.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, January 28, 2023 7:03 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian Mehalic<br>
<b>Cc:</b> RE-wrenches; <a
href="mailto:william@millersolar.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">william@millersolar.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery
disconnects</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian and William,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">With all due respect, I think your
geographical location of California may be limiting in
your understanding of the implications of local power
security. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Where I am in Minnesota and where I
work in Alaska, loss of power and backup power can have
very expensive consequences. When it is -30F outside and
howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours
before their interiors will drop below freezing. A few
hours after that pipes start to freeze and break.
Pressurized water then starts to spray everywhere and
then things can very quickly run into six-figure dollars
amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this risk is
by installing an ESS.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Around here, prior to the latest NEC,
we didn't have exterior disconnects available for anyone
to shut off power. We still don't for businesses. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My point is that NEC is mandating
that there be zero security of a buildings electrical
systems by requiring publicly accessible disconnects on
backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there
could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a
KNOXBOX or access controlled disconnects. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">William: I also disagree with your
premise that you'll test the battery disconnect system
after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You
had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT
controllers can and do blow up when they lose their
voltage reference (battery) under load. And removing the
battery from the circuit does allow the charge
controllers to island with the inverter and DC loads and
do other damage. I know of a telecom customer that had
hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when their
battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to
test it at full load, I'd guess you know that the whole
concept is a dumb idea.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-James Jefferson Jarvis<br>
APRS World, LLC<br>
+1-507-454-2727</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://www.aprsworld.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.aprsworld.com/</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian
Mehalic <<a href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">brian@solarenergy.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Every single house I’ve looked at
in my town has a breaker panel with a main service
disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in
many cases we are well beyond worrying about someone
“flicking your switch!”</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">In
fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect
requirement for stationary standby batteries
[480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and
two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the
requirement for an emergency disconnect for services
on those same one- and two-family dwellings
[230.85]. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Brian Mehalic</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On
Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via
RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It would be nice if the
decision was up to the owner / occupant of the
property. I, for one, do not want any random
person to be able to turn off my house or
business with the flick of a switch. I feel
strongly that there is far too much fear
mongering in NEC with relation to renewable
energy.</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-James Jefferson
Jarvis<br>
APRS World, LLC<br>
+1-507-454-2727</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a
href="http://www.aprsworld.com/"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://www.aprsworld.com/</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at
6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Esteemed wrenches:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well if my house is on
fire and the entry of fire responders is
delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose
having the disconnect. I can worry about
the charge controllers later. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Others may prioritize
their charge controller over their homes…</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Put a cable-tie lock in
the closed position to discourage kids
from messing with it. Test it only after
dark. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">William</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 28,
2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce <<a
href="mailto:wlbryce@pineridgeproducts.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">wlbryce@pineridgeproducts.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One thing that
no one is talking about is what
happens to the MPPT charge
controllers when the Battery
Disconnect trips when the charge
controllers are under full load. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Many will blow
up. Try turning off the battery
breaker on a SolaArk when the
charge controllers are maxed, and
see if you get lucky.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Jan 28,
2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via
RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border:none;border-left:solid
#cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Jeremy:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks
for posting the code
references for those that
had never looked them up.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Chris:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">What
do you mean by “</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">a
disconnect for AC wiring,
not specific to which or
both panel types”</span><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">All:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Code
references are handy when
receiving edicts from
building officials, but
not required, IMHO, for
two reasons: The
contractor should already
be versed in the codes
and, building departments
can mandate their own
requirements above and
beyond the code.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It
may seem redundant to
require an AC disconnect
for premise wiring as well
as a DC battery
disconnect. In most cases
if you disconnect the
inverter from the
batteries the AC power
goes off. However if the
generator is running at
the time, some battery
inverters can operate when
disconnected from
batteries. So to
completely de-energize all
components of an off-grid
home you need to
disconnect the generator
and the battery leads.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In
this case the home is
required to have fire
sprinklers. There is
pressure pump to provide
flow to these fire
sprinklers-- said pump
being powered by the
inverter/battery system.
I am going to apply for a
waiver to remove the DC
disconnect requirement on
the grounds that the
pressure pump is essential
fire suppression
equipment. Instead I will
propose to supply an AC
disconnect (meeting all
requirements for
accessibility and marking)
that will disconnect all
premise wiring except the
pressure pump. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">By
the way, I will of course
be trying to apply the
logic that the voltage
specification is for
nominal battery voltage
and this project having a
nominal 48 volt bank does
not require the battery
disconnect.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
will let the group know
what response I receive.
Regardless of how this
works in this
jurisdiction, I think
these are both valid
arguments worth trying in
any jurisdiction requiring
the battery disconnect.
Some officials are
amenable to dialog and
negotiation and some are
less so.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William
Miller</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road, Atascadero, CA
93422</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jeremy
Rodriguez via
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday,
January 28, 2023 10:12
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:cwarfel@entech-engineering.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">cwarfel@entech-engineering.com</a>;
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jeremy
Rodriguez<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[RE-wrenches] Remote
battery disconnects</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><strong><span
style="color:blue">2020
Code Language:</span></strong></p>
<p><em><b><span
style="color:black">480.7
DC Disconnect
Methods.</span></b></em></p>
<p><em><b><span
style="color:black">(A)
Disconnecting Means.</span></b></em><b><i><span
style="color:black"> </span></i></b><em><span
style="color:black">A
disconnecting means
shall be provided for
all ungrounded
conductors derived
from a stationary
battery system with a
voltage over 60 volts
dc. A disconnecting
means shall be readily
accessible and located
within sight of the
battery system.</span></em></p>
<p><em><b><span
style="color:black;background:#cccccc">N</span></b></em><b><i><span
style="color:black"> <em>(B)
Emergency
Disconnect.</em> </span></i></b><em><span
style="color:black">For
one-family and
two-family dwellings,
a disconnecting means
or its remote control
for a stationary
battery system shall
be located at a
readily accessible
location outside the
building for emergency
use. The disconnect
shall be labeled
“EMERGENCY
DISCONNECT”.</span></em></p>
<p><b><i><span
style="color:black;background:#cccccc">N</span><span
style="color:black"> <em>(C)
Disconnection of
Series Battery
Circuits.</em> </span></i></b><em><span
style="color:black">Battery
circuits exceeding 240
volts dc nominal
between conductors or
to ground and subject
to field servicing
shall have provisions
to disconnect the
series-connected
strings into segments
not exceeding 240
volts dc nominal for
maintenance by
qualified persons.
Non-load-break bolted
or plug-in disconnects
shall be permitted.</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<div
id="m_7115390210110525282m_-5127136963893056115m_4094476521578825074m_-1017373149271638466AppleMailSignature">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Jeremy
Rodriguez </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Solar
Installation / Design</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">All
Solar, Inc. </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">1453 M St. </p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Penrose
Colorado 81240</p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Sent by
Jeremy's iPhone.
Sorry for typos
and shorthand. </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On
Jan 28, 2023, at 7:28
AM, Christopher Warfel
via RE-wrenches <<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""></span> </p>
<p><span
style="font-size:13.5pt">Seems
confusing that the
AHJ is requiring a
disconnect for AC
wiring, not specific
to which or both
panel types, and
then a dc disconnect
with no code
reference. Was
trying to convey a
reasonable, safe
approach. A lot of
bad information from
fire department
solar consultants
making a lot of
money fear
mongering, which has
led to this type of
situation. Chris</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">On
1/27/2023 3:35 PM,
William Miller via
RE-wrenches wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Glenn:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As
I wrote, a DC
disconnect is
required. Here
is an excerpt
from the Q&A
with the
building
official:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white">4.</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white">Will
you be requiring
an external
disconnect to
disconnect the
AC output of the
inverter system
from premise
wiring?</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#c82613;background:white">Yes,
as required per
230.85</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white">5.</span><span
style="font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#242424;background:white">Will
you be requiring
an external
disconnect to
disconnect
batteries from
the inverters?</span></p>
<p
style="margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#c82613;background:white">Yes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If
the DC
disconnect was
not required I
would not be
wasting
everyone’s time
with my post. I
try to be
careful about
that,
researching on
my own before
posting and
trying to make
my questions
very clear. I
also try not to
embarrass myself
with dumb
questions, but
that does happen
occasionally…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">17395
Oak Road,
Atascadero, CA
93422</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">805-438-5600</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches
[mailto:<a
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf
Of </b>Glenn
Burt via
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Friday,
January 27,
2023 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b>
William Miller
via
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Cc:</b>
Glenn Burt<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re:
[RE-wrenches]
Remote battery
disconnects</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Does
the AHJ really
want the
batteries
disconnected
from
conductors, or
does he really
just want the
inverters to
stop operating
and producing
AC within the
house?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Obviously
there is a big
difference
here and it
may be
changing as
the code
evolves.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">-Glenn</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Sent
from my
'smart'phone,
so please
excuse typos
and spelling
errors.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div
id="m_7115390210110525282m_-5127136963893056115m_4094476521578825074m_-1017373149271638466LGEmailHeader">
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">------
Original
message------</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">From:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">William Miller via RE-wrenches</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Date:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Fri, Jan 27, 2023 2:26 PM</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">To:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">RE-wrenches;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Cc:
</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">William Miller;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">[RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Friends:</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">We
have a
large-ish
residential
off-grid
system install
coming up.
The AHJ has
said they will
require a
remote battery
disconnect. I
suspect there
will be fire
sprinkler
controls and a
pressure pump
that would
become
inoperable if
this system
were engaged.
In this case
we will apply
for a waiver.</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
last time this
was discussed
here as far as
I can find was
October of
2020. At that
time no one
suggested any
specific
battery
disconnect
equipment. </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">To
further
clarify my
needs: There
will be 4 or 5
Radian 8048
inverters (5
or 6 4/0
battery
circuits,
~350A each)
and two 175
amp PV
recombiner
outputs. That
is 6 poles of
high amperage
DC
disconnects.
</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">The
battery array
will be either
a UnigyII VRLA
or a lithium
of a brand yet
to be
determined.
In the case of
lithium we
will look for
a system that
can remotely
enable a BMS
shutdown. In
the case of a
VRLA
lead-acid, we
will not have
that luxury.</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I
have done some
considerable
research and
have not found
viable, high
amperage,
remotely
activated
shutdown
equipment.</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">I
am wondering
what hardware
others may be
using to
achieve remote
battery
disconnecting
in these types
of cases..</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">William</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Miller
Solar</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">17395
Oak Road,
Atascadero, CA
93422</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a
href="tel:805-438-5600" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">805-438-5600</a></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a
href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">www.millersolar.com</a></span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">CA
Lic. 773985</span></p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p>
</div>
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style="margin-right:1.0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.0in"> </p>
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William Miller<br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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