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<p>First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT
breakers, control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for
wiring and testing. I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost.
Not a big deal on large systems but for a smaller off grid project
in the $10K range, its a huge increase in cost. Folks are just
going to go DIY with junk off the internet, and the code is now
under the bus.<br>
</p>
<p>We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV
array circuit, not the inverter and battery output. Which has at
least kept refrigerators and heating system on during a trip.
However, because charge controllers hold residual voltage in
capacitors after the array is disconnected, we have had to add RT
breakers at the charge controllers to comply with the 30 v in 10
sec rule. <br>
</p>
<p>My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must
go onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore
power. IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the
name of fire fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all. There are
numerous nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose
connection or induced noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty neighbor)
Firefighters will probably only ever be on site to strap our poor
customer to a back board after they fall off the roof in the snow
trying to reset their new 690.12 compliant system.<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAF+3LnfrCiiomkA6fgL5CFZ++j5kTeFRB-d-W=V2uFwGZQCxvQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these
battery-based projects are getting killed here locally? Is it
the misinterpretation by AHJs that 690.12 has to disconnect the
inverter from the battery bank with giant shunt-trip breakers?
If that were the case...backup generators would have to be
controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I don't think that can of
worms has been opened yet.<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Dan
Fink</span>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Professor
of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech
Institute</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">IREC
Certified Instructor™ for: </div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">~
PV Installation Professional</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">~
Small Wind Installer</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">Executive
Director, Buckville Energy</div>
<div
style="font-size:12.8000001907349px">NABCEP
Registered Continuing Education
Providers™<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:970.672.4342"
value="+19706724342"
style="color:rgb(17,85,204)"
target="_blank">970.672.4342</a></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank">ray@solarray.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system
deal with 690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and
GTB arrangements? 690.12 has been killing battery
based projects left and right here in Colorado.</p>
<p>Thanks,<br>
</p>
<pre class="m_-5278478088777178352moz-signature" cols="72">R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28303%29%20505-8760" value="+13035058760" target="_blank">303 505-8760</a></pre>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div class="m_-5278478088777178352moz-cite-prefix">On
3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"><span>Hi
Howie,<br>
<br>
So Jay found this from previous posts
(below). So apparently the -40 series will
work in Off-grid mode (as long as you program
the SBs separately to be in OG) but won't do
the switching of modes necessary for grid-tie
backup. I plan on a call to SMA tech support
Monday morning to get to the bottom of what
exactly is lost without the RS485 comm. And
to see if TLs are still going to work as the
new SIs tech sheet shows they are not
supported. why I have no idea but I intend to
find out.<br>
<br>
hope that helps.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Jeff<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-interchange-newline">
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>From:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">Drake <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"
target="_blank">drake.chamberlin@<wbr>redwoodalliance.org</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Re:
[RE-wrenches] SMA US 40 & AC
coupling</b><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">March 13,
2017 at 10:23:56 AM PDT<br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">RE-wrenches
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Reply-To:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">RE-wrenches
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">I
talked with Tim at SMA today, and the new
Sunny Boy inverters will provide taper
charging with the Sunny Islands even
though no RS 485 communication is
available. The Sunny Boys need to be
programmed in the off grid mode, and the
Sunny Islands will take care of the UL
1741 requirements.<span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">The
graph below shows the relation between
frequency shift and % power produced by
the Sunny Boy inverters.<span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<img alt="Emacs!"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
id="m_-5278478088777178352C98CA293-90AE-4981-A424-3D98EA3A5CE4"
src="cid:part7.4E10CA2B.01F17412@solarray.com"><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Drake
Chamberlin</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<i
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">Athens
Electric LLC<br>
OH License 44810<br>
CO License 3773<br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV<span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28740%29%20448-7328"
value="+17404487328" target="_blank">740-448-7328</a><br>
</i><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://athens-electric.com/"
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"
target="_blank">http://athens-electric.com/</a><span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><span
class="m_-5278478088777178352Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">At
11:36 AM 3/10/2017, you wrote:</span><br
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
I just checked with SMA and they do not have
an RS485 card for the -40 inverters. What
this means is that you can set them up to be
permanently in off grid mode where the SB
will follow the frequency shift of the SI,
ok for an off grid system. But for grid tie
with backup, the SB will not communicate
with the SI and will not change the SB to
off grid mode. It will still work like other
generic AC coupled systems where the
frequency shift will cause the SB inverter
to drop off line, but as far as I know no
throttling back will happen.<br>
<br>
Brad<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
Howie Michaelson wrote:</span><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">I'm confused. Does this mean
the -40 series are not compatible with SI
off grid mode? Or they don't adjust output
due to frequency shift? Or?
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature"
dir="auto">Howie<br>
Howie Michaelson<br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™<br>
<br>
Sun Catcher<br>
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and
Service<br>
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28802%29%20272-0004"
value="+18022720004" target="_blank">802-272-0004</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 25, 2017
7:59 PM, "Tump" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tump@swnl.net"
target="_blank">tump@swnl.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Jeff
the bad news is yer outa luck BUT they
"had a work around" that was discussed
on the list a few weeks ago. I looked
quickly but didn’t see it posted. You
were going to install a RS 485 card/
module that had the soft ware to make
it work. I found this out just as
these “Newest latest n greatest
inverters" were just coming out,
looked at the manual, and much to my
disappointment I had to send it back
and educate my salesperson to this.
Lucky for me I was able to get the TL
series. Ill keep on looking, if you
don’t have any luck I do have a
contact at SMA…. at least he was there
2 weeks ago, contact me off list. Tump
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Mar 25, 2017, at 12:10
PM, Jeff Clearwater <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jeffc@villagepowerdesign.com"
target="_blank">jeffc@villagepowerdesign.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br
class="m_-5278478088777178352m_-8682180123997891521Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF"
text="#000000">
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif">All,<br>
<br>
Can anyone confirm for me
that the SUNNY BOY 3.0-US
/ 3.8-US / 5.0-US / 6.0-US
/ 7.0-US / 7.7-US series <span
style="font-weight:bold">is
or is not</span>
supported by the Sunny
Island in off-grid AC
coupling mode? The
technical paper on the
subject here <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf"
target="_blank">http://files.sma.de/dl/7910/SB<wbr>-OffGrid-TI-US-en-18.pdf</a>
does not list them but I'm
hoping it's cause that
paper is dated Feb '16.<br>
<br>
I sure hope they are
because that paper shows
they discontinued support
the the SUNNY BOY
3000TL-US / 3800TL-US /
4000TL-US / 5000TL-US /
6000TL-US / 7000TL-US /
7700TL-US series! Why!??<br>
<br>
Hope you have good news
for me!<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Jeff<span></span><br>
<br>
<div
class="m_-5278478088777178352m_-8682180123997891521moz-signature">--
<br>
<span><span
style="font-family:monospace">Jeff
Clearwater</span><br
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
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Village Power Design</span><br
style="font-family:monospace">
<span
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Renewable Energy
Design &
Installation</span><br>
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Consultant<br
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<span
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<span
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<div
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<div> <span
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<div><span
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</i></b></span><b><i>Blair
"TUMP" May</i></b></div>
<p><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b><i>
********
MAINE'S
CHARTER
********<br>
</i></b></span><b><i>
</i></b><span
style="text-decoration:underline"><b><i> NABCEP "Certified PV
Installer"</i></b></span><span
style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b><i> <br>
</i></b></span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b><i> <br>
********
MAINE'S
CHARTER
********<br>
</i></b></span><span
style="text-decoration:underline"><b><i> Trace Xantrex
"Certified"
Dealer /
Installer"</i></b></span></p>
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<div class="m_-5278478088777178352moz-signature">--
<span><span style="font-family:monospace">Jeff Clearwater</span>
<span style="font-family:monospace">
Village Power Design</span>
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Renewable Energy Design & Installation</span>
Ecovillage Design Consultant
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<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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