<div dir="ltr">Hi Allen,<div><br></div><div>I use the 2-3 day autonomy design approach as well unless there are unusual circumstances. Here in western Colorado this design approach has worked very well. I have been met with some resistance with folks that are used to the large 4-5 battery string designs that were common around here. Regarding battery longevity, I think the thing that we struggle with is making sure the batteries stay cool enough in the summer & warm enough in the winter. I haven't found an approach that works perfect.</div><div><br></div><div>It seems to me like chronic undercharging is a bigger problem than higher currents introduced by modern array designs.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 3:55 PM, Allan Sindelar <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com" target="_blank">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0)" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Dana (and I'm curious if others agree),<br>
I used to work with 4-5 days of storage, back with modules were
expensive and batteries were relatively cheap. As in recent years
these two have reversed - modules are cheap and batteries are dear -
my fundamental design approach has changed. I now design around 2-3
days of storage with a larger array, as long as there's a backup
generator in the system. I size to at least 100% of the projected
winter average daily load. <br>
<br>
The batteries recharge more quickly, including on partly cloudy days
between storms. They spend more of their time full, thus keeping
them happier and giving them as much or more life, even with more
and deeper cycling. FLAs are easier to EQ, given the hotter charge
rate. And the customer spends less.<br>
<br>
You used to live in SW Colorado, a similar sunny winter climate. Is
it the same in Idaho where you live now? <br>
Allan<br>
<br>
<div class="m_7625131214251882035moz-signature">
<div class="m_7625131214251882035WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com" target="_blank">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder (Retired), <span>Positive
Energy,
Inc.</span><br>
<b><a href="tel:505%20780-2738" value="+15057802738" target="_blank">505 780-2738</a> cell</b><br>
<br>
<b><u></u><u></u></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class="m_7625131214251882035moz-cite-prefix">On 10/14/2016 3:36 PM, Dana wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="m_7625131214251882035WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I recommend 4 days backup min
& 5 days backup if budget allows of storage and Iron
Edison were saying that 2 days was sufficient. To clarify -
I said “magical” as in wondering if there was something
special, I-E did not say this.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>_</span><span>_____________________________<wbr>____________________________<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Dana
Orzel</span><span> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Great Solar
Works, Inc - <span>NABCEP
# 051112-136<b><u></u><u></u></b></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#17365d">dana@solarwork.com</span></a>
- <a href="http://www.solarwork.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#17365d">www.solarwork.biz</span></a>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>O</span></b><span> -
<a href="tel:970.626.5253" value="+19706265253" target="_blank">970.626.5253</a> <b>F</b> - <a href="tel:970.626.4140" value="+19706264140" target="_blank">970.626.4140</a> c <b>- </b><span><a href="tel:208.721.7003" value="+12087217003" target="_blank">208.721.7003</a><b><u></u><u></u></b></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span>"Responsible
Technologies for Responsible People since 1988</span></u></b><b><u><span>" <u></u><u></u></span></u></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>From:</span></b><span> RE-wrenches
[<a class="m_7625131214251882035moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@<wbr>lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Dan Fink<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 14, 2016 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours FLA
VS Iron Edison Batteries<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Tom; I have never seen Iron Edison saying
NiFe is "magical" -- do you have a specific webpage on their
site that says this?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">All batteries have advantages and
disadvantages, and also myriad technical issues for the
installer to overcome. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Dan Fink</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Adjunct
Professor of Solar Energy
Technology, Ecotech Institute<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">IREC
Certified Instructor™ for: <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">~ PV
Installation Professional<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">~ Small Wind
Installer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">Executive
Director, Buckville Energy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.5pt">NABCEP
Registered Continuing Education
Providers™<br>
<a href="tel:970.672.4342" target="_blank"><span style="color:#1155cc">970.672.4342</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Tom
Duffy <<a href="mailto:Tom@solar-biz.com" target="_blank">Tom@solar-biz.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Hi
Dana</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Two
thoughts… how many days of autonomy are they
quoting?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">If
nickel Iron were this magical how come nobody has
noticed them for the past 100 years?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Kind
regards</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600">Tom
Duffy</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600">Senior
Solar Design Engineer</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"><img id="m_7625131214251882035m_4153023222714223141Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:part6.DDA2E584.8826B09C@sindelarsolar.com" alt="Solar-Biz-new-logo-800X300" height="96" border="0" width="242"></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:maroon">E-Mail:
</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"><a href="mailto:tom@solar-biz.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">tom@solar-biz.com</span></a></span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600">**Please
note my new email – You will now be able to
find me at: </span></i></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"><a href="mailto:tom@solar-biz.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">tom@solar-biz.com</span></a><i>
Please update your records so we don’t lose
touch!**</i></span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:maroon">Main
Number: </span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"><a href="tel:888-826-0939" target="_blank">888-826-0939</a></span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:maroon">Panama
Office: </span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"><a href="tel:507-836-5588%20X%20122" target="_blank">507-836-5588 X 122</a></span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:maroon">Direct
Toll Free:</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600">
<b><a href="tel:888-503-6772" target="_blank">888-503-6772</a></b></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:maroon">International:
</span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"><a href="tel:575-539-2111%20X%20122" target="_blank">575-539-2111 X 122</a></span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:maroon">SKYPE
Address: </span></b><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600">thesolarbiz
(<i>e-mail first</i>)</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"> </span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>NOTICE</span><span>:
<i>Due to recent budget cuts, the rising cost of
electricity, gas, and oil...plus the current
state of the economy............the light at the
end of the tunnel, has been turned off… It
should have been solar.</i></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:black"> </span><b><span>Confidentiality
Notice</span></b><span>:</span><span>
This message including any attachments is for the
sole use of the intended recipient and may contain
confidential and privileged information. Any
unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender and
delete any copies of this message.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#006600"> </span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@<wbr>lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dana<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 14, 2016 8:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches' <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Battery Watt hours
FLA VS Iron Edison Batteries<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Good
Morning All,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>I have a
charity case client that needs 760 to 900 AHR at
24 VDC. I have installed HUP Solar One Batteries
for 20+ years and do not have any experience
with the Iron Edison battery. My client went to
Iron Edison & was told that 360 AHR at 24
VDC would cover the same AHR as a 760 to 900 AHR
in FLA. I understand you can use the IE deeper
typically than a FLA.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Math is
math to me & how I have sized [successfully
for years] Is there something I am missing or
has my client been misinformed? </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>______________________________<wbr>____________________________</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Dana
Orzel </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Great
Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#17365d">dana@solarwork.com</span></a>
- <a href="http://www.solarwork.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#17365d">www.solarwork.biz</span></a>
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>O</span></b><span>
- <a href="tel:970.626.5253" target="_blank">970.626.5253</a>
<b>F</b> - <a href="tel:970.626.4140" target="_blank">970.626.4140</a>
c <b>- </b><a href="tel:208.721.7003" target="_blank">208.721.7003</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><u><span>"Responsible
Technologies for Responsible People since
1988</span></u></b><b><u><span>" </span></u></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.<wbr>org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/<wbr>options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/<wbr>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.<wbr>org/maillist.html</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.<wbr>htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_7625131214251882035mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
List Address: <a class="m_7625131214251882035moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.<wbr>org</a>
Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="m_7625131214251882035moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/<wbr>options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="m_7625131214251882035moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/<wbr>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.<wbr>org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="m_7625131214251882035moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.<wbr>htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="m_7625131214251882035moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>
<br>
List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.<wbr>org</a><br>
<br>
Change listserver email address & settings:<br>
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/<wbr>options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-<wbr>wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/<wbr>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.<wbr>org/maillist.html</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.<wbr>htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out or update participant bios:<br>
<a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div><br></div><div><font color="#305A78" face="'times new roman', serif"><br></font></div><div><br></div>Mac Lewis<br><br><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman';font-size:medium;color:rgb(255,153,0)"><b><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><p align="left"><font color="#000000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:small"><span style="font-family:arial;font-weight:normal;color:rgb(48,90,120)"><font face="'times new roman', serif">"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." </font><span style="font-weight:700;color:rgb(104,104,104)"><font face="'times new roman', serif">-Sócrates</font></span></span></span></font></p></font></b></span></div>
</div>