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--></style></head><body bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Hi Ray,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I get your take on this. Certainly reviewing what manufacturers are recommending helps. Generac has a pre-wired transfer switch backup panel, but it is hard to tell from the literature what they are recommending we do with neutrals:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.generac.com/all-products/transfer-switches/home-backup">http://www.generac.com/all-products/transfer-switches/home-backup</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">It seems clear to me that 300.3(B) requires all conductors of the same circuit to be routed together if run in metallic raceway. Perhaps the exception in 300.3(B)(3) Nonferrous Wiring Methods would allow neutrals to stay back if you run your conductors in nonmetallic raceway or sheathing. NEC 210.4 Multiwire Branch Circuits stipulates more requirements relating to grouping conductors.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Best,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">August</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ray Walters<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 10, 2016 12:46 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Hi August;<br><br>I'm glad you brought this up. When I first saw only the hots being brought to the Critical Load Panel, I thought it was wrong too, but then I recalled that this is similar to a switch leg. Does 300.3 forbid switch legs too? the exception in 404.2(A) allows switch legs, but does it apply here? I don't have a definitive answer in regard to 300.3, other than to note it has numerous exceptions. 300.3(B)(4) may also apply, and further, over current device enclosures and J boxes are not specifically mentioned either. <br><br>To be clear, I am not the originator of this idea; I just copied this method from Reliance and Generac's wiring of their UL listed circuit transfer switches. I have used it since 2003, and never had an AHJ have an objection. I've discussed it with AHJs and electricians that specialize in generators, and this is common when retrofitting a backup generator. <br><br>Also in response to the person that posted about having trouble with the neutrals: we have no neutrals at all in the CLP, if done this way. All neutrals land on the main neutral buss in the main panel. The CLP only has hots to the breakers, and the "neutral" bar in the CLP is used only as the equipment ground for the enclosure by adding the green bonding screw. <br><br>To be clear, I would not use this method on new construction where the branch circuits could be brought straight to the CLP. This is for <b>retrofit only</b>. I also would not do this if the CLP and main panel were connected with a nipple longer than 24". Further, I over size the nipple and use PVC to reduce any possible inductive heating issues. For very short nipples, I have to use RMC, but I would never use EMT.<br><br>This method helps keep the space requirements down to comply with 312.8(2), and keeps the wiring cleaner, fewer splices, and less over all disturbance to existing wiring in the sometimes aging and crowded main load center. <br>The trade off is possible inductive heating of a short nipple caused only by lower current 120 vac circuits (the 240 vac hots cancel each other's inductance). <br><br> Again, I'm not the AHJ, and I'm not the originator of this method. I'm just doing my best to describe a method used in the backup generator world that I've found helpful. <br>The NEC and our work essentially is a compromise of numerous competing safety concerns. The code describes many wiring methods; its up to us to optimize each situation for overall safety. <br><br>Here's a screen shot from the Reliance manual: <br><br><img border="0" width="948" height="734" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D20DAA.EAB04E30"><br><br><br></p><pre>R.Ray Walters</pre><pre>CTO, Solarray, Inc</pre><pre>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, </pre><pre>Licensed Master Electrician</pre><pre>Solar Design Engineer</pre><pre>303 505-8760</pre><div><p class="MsoNormal">On 9/9/2016 12:45 PM, August Goers wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><p class="MsoPlainText">Ray,</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">I’m intrigued by this. We’ve always gone off NEC 300.3(B):</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of</p><p class="MsoPlainText">the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor</p><p class="MsoPlainText">and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors</p><p class="MsoPlainText">shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary</p><p class="MsoPlainText">gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or</p><p class="MsoPlainText">cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with</p><p class="MsoPlainText">300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">I interpret this to mean that we need to run neutrals along with any branch circuits we are moving over.</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">Best,</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">August</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">From: RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ray Walters</p><p class="MsoPlainText">Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 5:44 PM</p><p class="MsoPlainText">To: RE-wrenches</p><p class="MsoPlainText">Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Splices in service panel</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">Hi Chris;</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">Its the same as a switch leg for a light. The neutral stays at the light, only the hot is run down to the switch and back. </p><p class="MsoPlainText">Also, with some critical load panel set ups available (ie Generac), there is no provision to even run the neutrals to the new CLP. </p><p class="MsoPlainText">This is cleaner and involves much less splicing. Fewer connections is usually better in my book.</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">R.Ray Walters</p><p class="MsoPlainText">CTO, Solarray, Inc</p><p class="MsoPlainText">Nabcep Certified PV Installer, </p><p class="MsoPlainText">Licensed Master Electrician</p><p class="MsoPlainText">Solar Design Engineer</p><p class="MsoPlainText">303 505-8760</p><p class="MsoPlainText">On 9/8/2016 6:22 PM, Chris Mason wrote:</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">I disagree with the response that you do not need to move the neutrals. You should never have the load's phase wiring in one panel and the neutral in another.</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText">Chris Mason </p><p class="MsoPlainText">NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™</p><p class="MsoPlainText">Solar Design Engineer</p><p class="MsoPlainText">Generac Generators Industrial technician</p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><br></p><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance</pre><pre> </pre><pre>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></pre><pre> </pre><pre>Change listserver email address & settings:</pre><pre><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></pre><pre> </pre><pre>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a></pre><pre> </pre><pre>List rules & etiquette:</pre><pre><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></pre><pre> </pre><pre>Check out or update participant bios:</pre><pre><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></pre><pre> </pre></blockquote><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></body></html>