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--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">In addition to what is stated below, my understanding is that neutrals in many commonly used inverter output circuits are not current carrying conductors either. You’ll have to check with your inverter manufacturer to be certain, however. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Best,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">August</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Luminalt</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>James Rudolph<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, April 23, 2016 11:59 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">Straight from Mike Holt:</p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">Neutral Conductor</span></b><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333"></span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">The neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V system, or 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/408V wye-connected system isn’t considered a current-carrying conductor.</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">The neutral conductor of a 3-wire circuit from a 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277V/480V wye-connected system is considered a current-carrying conductor.</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">When a 3-wire circuit is supplied from a 4-wire 3-[phase wye-connected system, the neutral conductor carries approximately the same current as the ungrounded conductors.</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">The neutral conductor of a 4-wire 3-phase circuit is considered a current-carrying conductor where the major portion of the neutral load consists of nonlinear loads. This is because harmonic currents will be present in the neutral conductor, even if the loads on each of the 3 phases are balanced.</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">Nonlinear loads supplied by 4-wire 3-phase 120/208V or 277/480V wye-connected systems can produce unwanted and potentially hazardous triplen harmonic currents (3rd, 9th, 15th, etc.) that can add on the neutral conductor. To prevent fire or equipment damage from excessive harmonic neutral current, the designer should consider increasing the size of the neutral conductor or installing a separate neutral for each phase. see 210.4(A) FPN, 220.61 FPN 2, and 450.3 FPN 2.</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">Grounding (earthing) and bonding conductors aren’t considered current carrying.</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">For individual dwelling units or one-family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size 3-wire single-phase 120/240V service or feeder conductors (including neutral conductors) that serve as the main power feeder. Feeder conductors are not required to have an ampacity rating greater than the service conductors [215.2(A)(3)].</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">Warning: Table 310.15(B)(6) doesn’t apply to 3-wire single-phase 120/208V systems, because the grounded neutral conductor in these systems carries neutral current even when the load on the phases is balanced [310.15(B)(4)(6)]. For more information on this topic, see 220.61(C)(1).</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">Grounded Neutral Conductor Sizing.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333"> Table 310.15(B)(6) can be used to size the grounded neutral conductor of a 3-wire single-phase 120/240V service or feeder that serves as the main power feeder, based on the feeder calculated load in accordance with 220.61.</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">Because the grounded neutral service conductor is required to serve as the effective ground-fault current path, it must be sized so that it can safely carry the maximum fault current likely to be imposed on it [110.10 and 250.4(A)(5)]. This is accomplished by sizing the grounded neutral conductor in accordance with Table 250.66, based on the total area of the largest ungrounded conductor [250.24(C)(1)].</span></p><p style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in;line-height:17.75pt"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif";color:#333333">aloha and happy trails...</span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Peter Parrish <<a href="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com" target="_blank">peter.parrish@calsolareng.com</a>> wrote:</p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I agree about the subpanel in the house situation. The customer is a bit eccentric, and I have tried to bring him around. And I have explained to him that his approach will be more expensive. He doesn’t care. In the end, there is no safety risk. So I’ll plan for 4 branch circuits per conduit and take the 0.70 derating.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">- Peter </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">President, SolarGnosis</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">1107 Fair Oaks Ave.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Suite 351</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">South Pasadena, CA 91030</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="tel:%28323%29%20839-6108" target="_blank">(323) 839-6108</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:petertor@pobox.com" target="_blank">petertor@pobox.com</a></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>William Miller<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 21, 2016 10:25 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Does a Neutral Count as a CCC</span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Peter:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I think it is a mistake to not locate a sub-panel in the house. Running branch circuits 45 feet to a separate building is not efficient or practical.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Voltage drop: 1% VD is a choice, not a requirement. Code requires 3% on feeders and 5% cumulative on AC branch circuits. I like to use 1% for average voltage drop for PV because of the cost of wasted PV energy. I am more lax on AC circuits. If I calculate a PV feeder for 1%, that drop will occur only occasionally, when peak solar is achieved. Analyze your load or charging profiles and look for a calc that provides the chosen VD for average use. Analyzing PV energy curves over a given day, approximately 50% of the energy is under the bell curve.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Neutrals are current carrying. Try powering a 120VAC load without one and you will see what I mean.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">William Miller</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><img border="0" width="64" height="28" id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.jpg@01D19EBF.F4B28F60" alt="Gradient Cap_mini"><br>Lic 773985<br><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank">millersolar.com</a><br><a href="tel:805-438-5600" target="_blank">805-438-5600</a></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Peter Parrish<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 21, 2016 8:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Does a Netral COunt as a CCC</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I am working with a customer who is doing a complete remodel and addition to his house: stripped to the open studs and floor joists, and rafters. Not a wire in the house. We have designed a 14.4 kWp PV system with 16 kW of storage for backup and load shifting. The main panel, inverters, critical load subpanel and batteries are all going to be in the garage which is about 45 feet from the house. The customer and I have identified the critical loads.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The GC is running conduit from the main house to the garage. I have been given seven (7) 1-1/2” PVC conduits, and I am currently doing conduit fill, ampacity and voltage drop calculations for the branch circuits that represent the critical loads.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">So I have two questions:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p>(1)<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Should I stick to a <1% voltage drop on all circuits?</span></p><p>(2)<span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Do 120 V neutrals count as current carrying conductors? I think they do, but the electrician stated quite emphatically that they didn’t. I thought that the derating calcs for CCCs were based solely on ohmic losses and phasing was not taken into account.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Does the NEC provide guidance on this latter situation?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p><span style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">-</span><span style="font-size:7.0pt"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Peter Parrish</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">President, SolarGnosis</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">1107 Fair Oaks Ave.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Suite 351</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">South Pasadena, CA 91030</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="tel:%28323%29%20839-6108" target="_blank">(323) 839-6108</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:petertor@pobox.com" target="_blank">petertor@pobox.com</a></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal">-- </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b><br>James B. Rudolph</b></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>Haleakala Solar</b> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>Director of Construction</b></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155</b></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>