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So Pat, you stated "<i>There are simple ways to work around these
issues</i>". Actually, the major off grid inverter manus do not
have a solution for this ( Magnum, Outback, Exeltech, Schneider,
SMA) <br>
Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has multiple
inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects within 5 ft?
I'm really looking for actual solutions here folks, and I haven't
seen a single system ever built, much less even a simple wiring
diagram that would comply with this new requirement. (<i>690.12(5)
Equipment that performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed and
identified</i>)<br>
<br>
Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of problems. Your
"<i>What would I do in my own house?</i>" is an excellent point.
Personally, I would not want the neighbor's kids to be able to shut
off my refrigerator or grandma's breathing machine with the touch of
an outside accessible, unlockable button.<br>
<br>
I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2 decades, so
yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV world to do this.
But the days of inventing custom (non UL) solutions to meet new
requirements should be over. If this is to be a national
requirement, the industry should be mature enough to offer multiple
solutions for code compliance. I'm all for improving safety, but it
needs to be done as an industry: together, incrementally.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick Shortell
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAHcXnFUCBqdavA406sYZLkEGwVZxM5B8OLmFVeJLp+6tQ1MRGQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<div>Dear List,<br>
</div>
Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but
shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly in an
emergency situation.<br>
</div>
We can always do better than what the code requires.
I get frustrated when people go to the book, (and
try to hide behind the text). instead of thinking
through real life scenarios.<br>
</div>
There are simple ways to work around these issues.<br>
</div>
I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ
and get his approval First.<br>
</div>
What would I do in my own house?<br>
</div>
What if someone thought all the power was off when they
dragged a hoseline into my basement.<br>
</div>
My two cents<br>
</div>
Pat<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank">billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ray,<br>
<br>
I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV
system circuit is a<br>
self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you
are going to<br>
develop a meaning that is different from the
self-definition. It means ANY<br>
circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and
stand-alone circuits in<br>
the 2014 NEC.<br>
<br>
The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the
fire service and<br>
the PV industry. Originally, the language required
essentially module-level<br>
shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get
them involved<br>
since most were not paying attention at the time. This
language was<br>
developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system.
In the 2014<br>
NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall
under this<br>
requirement.<br>
<br>
In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all
batteries and loads,<br>
that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in
their own<br>
articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't
think for a minute<br>
that I alone made this requirement or am alone in
interpreting it in this<br>
way. I did author this compromise with other representatives
of the PV<br>
industry so I think I know what the intent was.<br>
<br>
It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I
would try to keep<br>
battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was
intended to match the<br>
requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the
intent of the<br>
2014 NEC.<br>
<br>
The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but
they still cannot<br>
backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706)
will have their<br>
own requirements in time--that is guaranteed.<br>
<br>
Bill.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
On<br>
Behalf Of Ray Walters<br>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown<br>
<br>
Greetings Esteemed Wrenches:<br>
<br>
I've just heard back from our inspector here in
Colorado, and we are still<br>
being required to disconnect the batteries under
690.12. No where in 690.12<br>
are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71
section that deals<br>
with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is
based on a single<br>
article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have
contacted both<br>
Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers
are unaware that rapid<br>
shutdown applies.<br>
My interpretation is that I could install an inverter
and battery system<br>
that was charged from a generator, and we would not need
any rapid shutdown<br>
at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a
single solar module into<br>
the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The
problem lies with the<br>
term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines
'PV Output<br>
circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV
system circuit'<br>
defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term.<br>
Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E
panel with their<br>
remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more
than 5 ft from the<br>
batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects
(that would comply<br>
with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer
remote trip.<br>
We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof
with the Birdhouse,<br>
so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be
applied to batteries<br>
though.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
--<br>
R.Ray Walters<br>
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
Licensed Master Electrician<br>
Solar Design Engineer<br>
303 505-8760<br>
<br>
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<br>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Patrick A. Shortell
<div><i>Licensed Master Electrician</i></div>
<div><i>Certified Solar Installer</i></div>
<div>71 Oregon Street</div>
<div>Long Beach N.Y. 11561</div>
<div>cell: 516-477-0221</div>
<div><br>
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