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All right Larry, that's an actual start to a solution. My comments:<br>
1) We already have had a solution for the array side using a
Midnite Birdhouse and Midnite rapid disconnecting combiner box.
(The <i>PV Circuit</i> of the "<i>PV system circuit</i>" so I
wasn't questioning that)<br>
2) Who is the supplier of the 400 amp solenoid, <br>
3) is it UL listed for Rapid disconnect, <br>
4) does it have an approved enclosure? (ie. does the solenoid comes
mounted in a UL listed assembly)<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/15/2016 2:57 PM, Starlight Solar
Power Systems wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:F7C1757B-2D78-482D-AB42-E2BFBA7514CC@starlightsolar.com"
type="cite">
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I thought this idea (attached) was a simple solution for array and
battery rapid shutdown using a Classic controller and solenoids.
The PV solenoids are 350 amp continuous @ 700 Vdc, and 400A @ 48
volts for the battery. Cost is about $120 each.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Midnite told me than plan to implement the arc fault
relay control. A simple SPST switch in series with the 12 volt
Aux output will allow shutdown. Add a fire alarm output relay
for auto-shutdown in case of fire. Seems like a simple, cost
effective way to me.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Any comments Ray, Pete, Bill?<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
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id="C5BF4239-D7F0-402D-A205-08EE1ECF7587"
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height="586" width="480"><br class="">
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class=""><br class="">
Larry Crutcher<br class="">
Starlight Solar Power Systems<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
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class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
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<br class="">
<div>
<div class="">On Mar 15, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Patrick
Shortell <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pshortell6@gmail.com" class="">pshortell6@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">Dear List,<br class="">
</div>
Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion,
but shouldnt all sources be
disconnected rapidly in an emergency
situation.<br class="">
</div>
We can always do better than what the
code requires. I get frustrated when
people go to the book, (and try to hide
behind the text). instead of thinking
through real life scenarios.<br class="">
</div>
There are simple ways to work around these
issues.<br class="">
</div>
I find when something is questionable, Ill
call the AHJ and get his approval First.<br
class="">
</div>
What would I do in my own house?<br class="">
</div>
What if someone thought all the power was off
when they dragged a hoseline into my basement.<br
class="">
</div>
My two cents<br class="">
</div>
Pat<br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at
1:10 PM, <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net"
target="_blank" class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net">billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">Ray,<br class="">
<br class="">
I guess I have to step in after that
acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a<br
class="">
self-defined term and therefore cannot be
defined unless you are going to<br class="">
develop a meaning that is different from the
self-definition. It means ANY<br class="">
circuit in a PV system. This includes battery
and stand-alone circuits in<br class="">
the 2014 NEC.<br class="">
<br class="">
The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise
between the fire service and<br class="">
the PV industry. Originally, the language
required essentially module-level<br class="">
shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV
industry to get them involved<br class="">
since most were not paying attention at the
time. This language was<br class="">
developed and intended to cover all circuits in
a PV system. In the 2014<br class="">
NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and
therefore fall under this<br class="">
requirement.<br class="">
<br class="">
In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve
out all batteries and loads,<br class="">
that were previously part of PV systems, and
place them in their own<br class="">
articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one
and don't think for a minute<br class="">
that I alone made this requirement or am alone
in interpreting it in this<br class="">
way. I did author this compromise with other
representatives of the PV<br class="">
industry so I think I know what the intent was.<br
class="">
<br class="">
It is understandably difficult for battery
systems and I would try to keep<br class="">
battery circuits as short as possible. The
5-feet was intended to match the<br class="">
requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further
evidence of the intent of the<br class="">
2014 NEC.<br class="">
<br class="">
The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the
requirement, but they still cannot<br class="">
backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems
(Article 706) will have their<br class="">
own requirements in time--that is guaranteed.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Bill.<br class="">
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></a>]
On<br class="">
Behalf Of Ray Walters<br class="">
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM<br
class="">
To: RE-wrenches <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
class=""><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></a>><br
class="">
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown<br
class="">
<br class="">
Greetings Esteemed Wrenches:<br class="">
<br class="">
I've just heard back from our inspector here
in Colorado, and we are still<br class="">
being required to disconnect the batteries
under 690.12. No where in 690.12<br
class="">
are batteries mentioned, nor in the
appropriate 690.71 section that deals<br
class="">
with batteries. The entire reasoning behind
this is based on a single<br class="">
article written by a single person: Bill
Brooks. I have contacted both<br class="">
Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their
engineers are unaware that rapid<br class="">
shutdown applies.<br class="">
My interpretation is that I could install an
inverter and battery system<br class="">
that was charged from a generator, and we
would not need any rapid shutdown<br
class="">
at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I
put a single solar module into<br class="">
the system, suddenly the entire system
becomes PV? The problem lies with the<br
class="">
term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12.
690.2 Defines 'PV Output<br class="">
circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there
is no 'PV system circuit'<br class="">
defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined
term.<br class="">
Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used
Midnite's E panel with their<br class="">
remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would
be more than 5 ft from the<br class="">
batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC
disconnects (that would comply<br class="">
with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they
don't offer remote trip.<br class="">
We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner
on the roof with the Birdhouse,<br class="">
so we are complying with 690.12, it should
not be applied to batteries<br class="">
though.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
--<br class="">
R.Ray Walters<br class="">
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br class="">
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br class="">
Licensed Master Electrician<br class="">
Solar Design Engineer<br class="">
303 505-8760<br class="">
</div>
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