<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">I thought this idea (attached) was a simple solution for array and battery rapid shutdown using a Classic controller and solenoids. The PV solenoids are 350 amp continuous @ 700 Vdc, and 400A @ 48 volts for the battery. Cost is about $120 each. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Midnite told me than plan to implement the arc fault relay control. A simple SPST switch in series with the 12 volt Aux output will allow shutdown. Add a fire alarm output relay for auto-shutdown in case of fire. Seems like a simple, cost effective way to me.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Any comments Ray, Pete, Bill?<br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><div class=""><img style="orphans: 2; widows: 2;" apple-inline="yes" id="C5BF4239-D7F0-402D-A205-08EE1ECF7587" height="586" width="480" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:7D59B4FD-22DF-4A85-90EA-DA5A702C2D3B" class=""><br class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class="">Larry Crutcher<br class="">Starlight Solar Power Systems<br class=""><br class=""></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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<br class=""><div><div class="">On Mar 15, 2016, at 12:48 PM, Patrick Shortell <<a href="mailto:pshortell6@gmail.com" class="">pshortell6@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class="">Dear List,<br class=""></div>Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly in an emergency situation.<br class=""></div>We can always do better than what the code requires. I get frustrated when people go to the book, (and try to hide behind the text). instead of thinking through real life scenarios.<br class=""></div>There are simple ways to work around these issues.<br class=""></div>I find when something is questionable, Ill call the AHJ and get his approval First.<br class=""></div>What would I do in my own house?<br class=""></div>What if someone thought all the power was off when they dragged a hoseline into my basement.<br class=""></div>My two cents<br class=""></div>Pat<br class=""></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM, <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank" class="">billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ray,<br class="">
<br class="">
I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement. PV system circuit is a<br class="">
self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined unless you are going to<br class="">
develop a meaning that is different from the self-definition. It means ANY<br class="">
circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and stand-alone circuits in<br class="">
the 2014 NEC.<br class="">
<br class="">
The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between the fire service and<br class="">
the PV industry. Originally, the language required essentially module-level<br class="">
shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to get them involved<br class="">
since most were not paying attention at the time. This language was<br class="">
developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV system. In the 2014<br class="">
NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore fall under this<br class="">
requirement.<br class="">
<br class="">
In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all batteries and loads,<br class="">
that were previously part of PV systems, and place them in their own<br class="">
articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and don't think for a minute<br class="">
that I alone made this requirement or am alone in interpreting it in this<br class="">
way. I did author this compromise with other representatives of the PV<br class="">
industry so I think I know what the intent was.<br class="">
<br class="">
It is understandably difficult for battery systems and I would try to keep<br class="">
battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was intended to match the<br class="">
requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of the intent of the<br class="">
2014 NEC.<br class="">
<br class="">
The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement, but they still cannot<br class="">
backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article 706) will have their<br class="">
own requirements in time--that is guaranteed.<br class="">
<br class="">
Bill.<br class="">
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br class="">
<br class="">
-----Original Message-----<br class="">
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" class="">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On<br class="">
Behalf Of Ray Walters<br class="">
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM<br class="">
To: RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" class="">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br class="">
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown<br class="">
<br class="">
Greetings Esteemed Wrenches:<br class="">
<br class="">
I've just heard back from our inspector here in Colorado, and we are still<br class="">
being required to disconnect the batteries under 690.12. No where in 690.12<br class="">
are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate 690.71 section that deals<br class="">
with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this is based on a single<br class="">
article written by a single person: Bill Brooks. I have contacted both<br class="">
Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their engineers are unaware that rapid<br class="">
shutdown applies.<br class="">
My interpretation is that I could install an inverter and battery system<br class="">
that was charged from a generator, and we would not need any rapid shutdown<br class="">
at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a single solar module into<br class="">
the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV? The problem lies with the<br class="">
term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2 Defines 'PV Output<br class="">
circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no 'PV system circuit'<br class="">
defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term.<br class="">
Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used Midnite's E panel with their<br class="">
remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be more than 5 ft from the<br class="">
batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC disconnects (that would comply<br class="">
with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't offer remote trip.<br class="">
We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the roof with the Birdhouse,<br class="">
so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be applied to batteries<br class="">
though.<br class="">
<br class="">
Thanks,<br class="">
<br class="">
--<br class="">
R.Ray Walters<br class="">
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br class="">
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br class="">
Licensed Master Electrician<br class="">
Solar Design Engineer<br class="">
303 505-8760<br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><br class=""></div></div></div></div></body></html>