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Hi Pat;<br>
<br>
HI Pat;<br>
<br>
No disrespect in either direction. I always appreciate everyone's
views.<br>
Larry's Gigavac solenoid looks good too, but my read of 690.71 looks
like I still need an OCPD within 5 ft of the batteries, as well.
<br>
I'm already using substantial Midnite products for the actual "PV
Circuit" Rapid Disconnect, so I will probably do further "cobbling"
with their RT Breakers and enclosures to meet the battery side
requirements. <br>
It still is amazing that this is not being addressed by any of the
inverter manufacturers. But hey, I'm just some hippy Drumpf brain
from no where's ville, so what do I know?<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer since 1986
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/15/2016 3:54 PM, Patrick A.
Shortell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:1F840C6C-0A50-40E8-887D-D69BF4DF5FA3@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
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<div>Hi Ray</div>
<div>Well you got me there</div>
<div>I meant no disrespect to you personally.</div>
<div>I think as a whole the code making panels do their best to
keep up.</div>
<div>If I missed some of the particulars</div>
<div>Please excuse me.</div>
<div>And I guess it would be more useful to offer a workable
solution</div>
<div>Maybe I've missed some of the details but doesn't mid nite
offer a shunt trip breaker as part of their ebox that works with
the birdhouse</div>
<div>I've used one in the past</div>
<div>Is it not ul listed</div>
<div>That's all from me</div>
<div>Pat<br>
<br>
<div>Patrick A. Shortell
<div>Licensed Master Electrician</div>
<div>Certified Solar Installer</div>
<div>71 Oregon Street</div>
<div>Long Beach N.Y. 11561</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.thesolarstorehouse.com">Www.thesolarstorehouse.com</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
On Mar 15, 2016, at 5:16 PM, Ray Walters <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a></a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
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So Pat, you stated "<i>There are simple ways to work around
these issues</i>". Actually, the major off grid inverter
manus do not have a solution for this ( Magnum, Outback,
Exeltech, Schneider, SMA) <br>
Can you show us an example of a UL listed system that has
multiple inverters (over 8 kW cont.), with rapid disconnects
within 5 ft? I'm really looking for actual solutions here
folks, and I haven't seen a single system ever built, much
less even a simple wiring diagram that would comply with this
new requirement. (<i>690.12(5) Equipment that performs the
rapid shutdown shall be listed and identified</i>)<br>
<br>
Also, for every improvement comes a whole new set of
problems. Your "<i>What would I do in my own house?</i>" is
an excellent point. Personally, I would not want the
neighbor's kids to be able to shut off my refrigerator or
grandma's breathing machine with the touch of an outside
accessible, unlockable button.<br>
<br>
I've been cobbling together code compliant systems for 2
decades, so yes, I'm sure I could scavenge relays from the EV
world to do this. But the days of inventing custom (non UL)
solutions to meet new requirements should be over. If this is
to be a national requirement, the industry should be mature
enough to offer multiple solutions for code compliance. I'm
all for improving safety, but it needs to be done as an
industry: together, incrementally.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/15/2016 1:48 PM, Patrick
Shortell wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAHcXnFUCBqdavA406sYZLkEGwVZxM5B8OLmFVeJLp+6tQ1MRGQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Dear List,<br>
</div>
Maybe it's an over simplistic opinion, but
shouldnt all sources be disconnected rapidly
in an emergency situation.<br>
</div>
We can always do better than what the code
requires. I get frustrated when people go to
the book, (and try to hide behind the text).
instead of thinking through real life
scenarios.<br>
</div>
There are simple ways to work around these
issues.<br>
</div>
I find when something is questionable, Ill call
the AHJ and get his approval First.<br>
</div>
What would I do in my own house?<br>
</div>
What if someone thought all the power was off when
they dragged a hoseline into my basement.<br>
</div>
My two cents<br>
</div>
Pat<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:10 PM,
<span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net"
target="_blank">billbrooks7@sbcglobal.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ray,<br>
<br>
I guess I have to step in after that acknowledgement.
PV system circuit is a<br>
self-defined term and therefore cannot be defined
unless you are going to<br>
develop a meaning that is different from the
self-definition. It means ANY<br>
circuit in a PV system. This includes battery and
stand-alone circuits in<br>
the 2014 NEC.<br>
<br>
The language of the 2014 NEC was a compromise between
the fire service and<br>
the PV industry. Originally, the language required
essentially module-level<br>
shutdown. I raised the concern with the PV industry to
get them involved<br>
since most were not paying attention at the time. This
language was<br>
developed and intended to cover all circuits in a PV
system. In the 2014<br>
NEC, batteries are part of a PV system and therefore
fall under this<br>
requirement.<br>
<br>
In the 2017 NEC, we were very careful to carve out all
batteries and loads,<br>
that were previously part of PV systems, and place
them in their own<br>
articles. Don't shoot the messenger on this one and
don't think for a minute<br>
that I alone made this requirement or am alone in
interpreting it in this<br>
way. I did author this compromise with other
representatives of the PV<br>
industry so I think I know what the intent was.<br>
<br>
It is understandably difficult for battery systems and
I would try to keep<br>
battery circuits as short as possible. The 5-feet was
intended to match the<br>
requirement of 690.71(H)--which is further evidence of
the intent of the<br>
2014 NEC.<br>
<br>
The 2017 NEC removes batteries from the requirement,
but they still cannot<br>
backfeed the PV array. Energy storage systems (Article
706) will have their<br>
own requirements in time--that is guaranteed.<br>
<br>
Bill.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></a>]
On<br>
Behalf Of Ray Walters<br>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:02 AM<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown<br>
<br>
Greetings Esteemed Wrenches:<br>
<br>
I've just heard back from our inspector here in
Colorado, and we are still<br>
being required to disconnect the batteries under
690.12. No where in 690.12<br>
are batteries mentioned, nor in the appropriate
690.71 section that deals<br>
with batteries. The entire reasoning behind this
is based on a single<br>
article written by a single person: Bill Brooks.
I have contacted both<br>
Outback and Magnum on this issue, and their
engineers are unaware that rapid<br>
shutdown applies.<br>
My interpretation is that I could install an
inverter and battery system<br>
that was charged from a generator, and we would
not need any rapid shutdown<br>
at all. But according to Bill, as soon as I put a
single solar module into<br>
the system, suddenly the entire system becomes PV?
The problem lies with the<br>
term 'PV System circuit' used in 690.12. 690.2
Defines 'PV Output<br>
circuit', and 'PV source circuit', but there is no
'PV system circuit'<br>
defined. 690.12 therefore uses an undefined term.<br>
Our design uses 2 inverters, so if we used
Midnite's E panel with their<br>
remote trip breakers, the 2nd inverter would be
more than 5 ft from the<br>
batteries. If we used Magnum or Outback DC
disconnects (that would comply<br>
with the 5 ft rule specified in 690.71) they don't
offer remote trip.<br>
We have a Midnite Rapid disconnect Combiner on the
roof with the Birdhouse,<br>
so we are complying with 690.12, it should not be
applied to batteries<br>
though.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
--<br>
R.Ray Walters<br>
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
Licensed Master Electrician<br>
Solar Design Engineer<br>
303 505-8760<br>
<br>
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-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">Patrick A. Shortell
<div><i>Licensed Master Electrician</i></div>
<div><i>Certified Solar Installer</i></div>
<div>71 Oregon Street</div>
<div>Long Beach N.Y. 11561</div>
<div>cell: 516-477-0221</div>
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