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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Dan,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I concur with your basic assessment. After listening to an Aquion presentation, and reviewing the operating curves, this battery has a very narrow application. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Most off-grid houses these days have significant surge loads. That is why we spend so much time and effort making sure our inverter is properly rated for the worst-case surges. Most batteries are relied upon, not just for energy storage, which Aquion appears to deliver, but we also must have significant surge power. Aquion essentially has no surge capability.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>If you have an application where a non-surge inverter will work, then you might have an Aquion application. Otherwise, stay away from Aquion until they develop a concept that allows surges.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Think of the Aquion battery like a fuel cell. Fuel cells are notoriously poor at surges.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Bill.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Bill Brooks, PE<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Principal<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Brooks Engineering<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dan Fink<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 29, 2016 10:52 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Aquion Batteries<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>I second Larry's concerns about Aquion's SOC/voltage curves and tripping LVD at only 40% DOD with standard PV equipment, tied in with not being able to handle high discharge C-rates and surge loads. I did some math on running a typical off-grid home with a well pump on Aquions, and it wasn't pretty, but I may not have done the math right. Very interested to hear personal experience on off-grid homes with these batteries. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> I was starting to envision applications for remote MET tower, repeater tower etc applications with low discharge C-rates and high charging C-rates, and then saw Aquions lowest operation temperature of -5C, 23 F. That's considered a "heat wave" during certain times of year in many areas, including here in sunny Colorado. In these applications the batteries are NOT in a heated room, instead an outdoor enclosure at the base of a tower.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>AGMs are serving us here just fine on these sorts of esoteric installations, and they have no problem with -29C and lower when kept at high SOC. And, cheap, easy to replace, and giving us many years of life. The ROI math on the Aquions compared to AGM is not adding up for me on these applications.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>My only experience with Aquion was their class at the NABCEP conference last year. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Any ground truth experience and stories on Aquions and other similar technologies appreciated here also.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best regards;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>Dan Fink</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>Adjunct Professor, Ecotech Institute<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>IREC Certified Instructor™ for: <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>~ PV Installation Professional<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>~ Small Wind Installer<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>Executive Director, Buckville Energy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:9.5pt'>NABCEP Accredited Continuing Education Providers™<br><a href="tel:970.672.4342" target="_blank"><span style='color:#1155CC'>970.672.4342</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems <<a href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com" target="_blank">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal>I too am interested in anyone that has installed these. I had some concerns back on Nov 10, 2014. Here is a copy/past from that conversation:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Something does not add up to me. The cell has a voltage discharge curve way outside that of RE equipment, 1.75 Vpc down to 0.5Vpc. I can't see how this technology could be scaled to RE applications without wasting much of the capacity. From what I see, only about 40% could be used before LVD.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And this:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='background:white'>The Aquion battery claims their 2.4kWh, 48 volt stack operates from 59 to 30 volts. Many inverters have a LBCO of 1.75 Vpc (42 volts). Depending on voltage sag, that means about half of the capacity of the Aquion battery can't be used. Even if the outback can operate down to 1.5 Vpc, you are still not able to use the full capacity of the battery unless your load is less than 800 Watts. </span><br><br><span style='background:white'>I have reviewed their technical presentation and it looks to me like the capacity simply can't be used in the off grid environment. If you can't use it, why do they rate it at 2.4kWh? BTW, the Voltage vs.Energy chart on the spec sheet does not match the first chart I posted.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><img border=0 width=449 height=415 id="_x0000_i1025" src="cid:image001.png@01D15A8A.80EC6DE0"><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jan 29, 2016, at 7:30 AM, Chris Schaefer <<a href="mailto:chris@solarandwindfx.com" target="_blank">chris@solarandwindfx.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>To All,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> Great insight on the lithium movement. I do am looking for anyone dealing with the new Aquion batteries. I’ve got a couple of potential clients that have inquired about them. Saw them at a NABCEP training session last spring and while the idea is moving I wasn’t impressed. Perhaps it’s time to start a new thread, “Aquion batteries”.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Christopher</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> RE-wrenches [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:don@energysolarnow.com" target="_blank">don@energysolarnow.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 29 January, 2016 00:49<br><b>To:</b> Dan Fink<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] LiFePO4; WAS Availability of Powerwall Batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Thanks for sharing your experience with these batteries, Dan.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>I have similar SOC issues with an off-grid customer who has the Aquion Hybrid Ion batteries.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>It has difficulty reaching full charge from solar, requiring the genny to kick on each morning even in the summer.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>This is even worse in cold winter weather.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Your explanation of the change in Peukert's exponent above 80% SOC with NiFe batteries sounds like what is happening here as well. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Do you have any experience with Aquion batteries that you can share?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Don Barch </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'>Energy Solar</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif'><a href="mailto:don@energysolarnow.com" target="_blank">don@energysolarnow.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>