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--></style></head><body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Chris:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Technically, yes, yes and yes. The devil is in the details, however, and the process is not as easy as you have described it: This job has no combiners and if it did, the combiner wouldn’t be on the roof. I don’t know of a good rooftop combiner (other than Soladeck, see below).</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Here are the deviling details. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">We try to secure PV wiring very carefully under our arrays. This is to prevent squirrels looking for food, rakes looking to clear leaves and kids with scrap pipe looking to retrieve Frisbees from engaging in the leads. (See: <a href="http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html">http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_Wiring2.html</a>)</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As such, we can’t just reach under a rack and blindly snag an MC connector and pop it loose. They are not just swinging in the breeze, by design. Accessing them requires removing at least one module for each string, and knowing how many strings and how they are wired.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">We can’t expect fire fighters to fish around under our arrays in the smoke and confusion in futile hopes of finding the correct MC connectors to de-energize all strings.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">4.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Similarly, we can’t expect the plumber, after accidentally drilling through the PV conduit, to know how to do this while the conduit is arcing and sparking and threatening to burn the house down.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I know some of these scenarios are fairly unlikely, but as professionals, we need to plan for the unexpected. I believe a well-marked and conveniently located switch will be the best option, even if that location is on the roof. If I were looking for a PV disconnect, I’d look near the PV. Particularly if the engraved plaque indicated as much.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Sincerely,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William Miller</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">PS: The DC Sunvolt switch arrived today. It looks solid and we will install it tomorrow on this roof-mounted off grid system tomorrow.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Wm</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">PPS: This discussion branches out in several directions:</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The job we are on is a residential, roof mounted off-grid. Normally we would have 4 to 8 strings of three into Outback controllers and require combiners. Mounting a combiner on the roof is not an option. All models I am aware of would stick up an spoil the aesthetics of this modest but high-end, ocean view home.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Because we had conduit limitations (see below), we opted for the Morningstar high voltage controller. With grounded arrays, this limited the disconnect to for two strings to two poles, making it affordable.</span></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Transformerless inverters are here to stay, but they will require double the poles of disconnection. Two poles (one string) = $216.00. Four poles (2 strings) = $441.00.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Wm</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">PPPS: Here’s why we couldn’t use Soladeck on this job: Soladeck might have worked here but the roofing is ultra-thick, presidential comp, difficult to weave a Soladeck into. Also some idiot preinstalled PVC conduit and we must have metallic. Conduit installed is very difficult to install a Soladeck to as a remodel. The male adapter needs to be flush with the decking, easy enough during rough-in, but after the roof is on, it is very difficult to get to the conduit under the decking to cut in a male adapter</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Summary: Easier said than done.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Wm</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><img border="0" width="64" height="28" id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image003.jpg@01D0F71F.FE45AB90" alt="Gradient Cap_mini"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><br>Lic 773985<br><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/">millersolar.com</a><br>805-438-5600</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> RE-wrenches [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Mason<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 24, 2015 3:37 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Rooftop DC disconnects</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">I'm not sure I understand this issue. The Morningstar 600V comes with a disconnect built in, so everything downstream is isolated. Upstream, in the rare case you need to replace the Morningstar, turn it off, pop out the fuses in the combiner and work away. If you have a single string application, unplug an MC4 connector. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:31 AM, Jason Szumlanski <<a href="mailto:jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com" target="_blank">jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com</a>> wrote:</p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"">"</span><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"">In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers."</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"">The BEST rooftop disconnect remains... a big thick tarp. Not totally practical in an emergency situation, but it is pretty fail safe. </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"">Unfortunately for emergency responders, that does not take care of the AC circuits in a microinverter or AC module system, but ideally the building main is shut down anyway, and the risk is the same as any other 240V equipment/appliance circuits.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#888888"> </span></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#888888"></span><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#888888">Jason Szumlanski</span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#888888"> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif";color:#888888"> </span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 4:26 PM, William Miller <<a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com" target="_blank">william@millersolar.com</a>> wrote:</p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Dear Fellow Wrenches</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Below is a design conundrum that may resonate with some of you:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">We are finalizing a design for an off-grid residential system. The customer insist the PV should be on the roof and pre-installed a 1-1/4” PVC conduit from his roof to a crawl space, in anticipation of a solar install. This created real problems, because we all know we can’t pull PV source or output circuits in (or now, on) the envelopes of habitable buildings.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">There was no practical way to replace the PVC. We contrived a method to sleeve ¾” liquid-tight through the 1-1/4” PVC to the crawl space, continuing on with EMT. This is the largest metallic conduit we could fit. The distance was greater than 10 feet so we couldn’t use EMT. Due to the conduit size restriction, we upgraded to Morningstar 600 volt charge controllers, allowing us to reduce conductor size.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">(As a sidebar, although the Morningstar is listed as a 600 volt charge controller, we have found no circumstance were we could take advantage of that high a voltage. With the currently available high wattage modules, by the time we added enough in series to get to 600 volts, we were well beyond the wattage capabilities of the controller. For sake of design considerations, I suggest one regard these units as ~300 volt charge controllers.)</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">We now have plans for 300 volt PV feeders running down an interior wall and under the house, with no roof-top disconnecting means. It is my understanding none are required. I am not comfortable with this. </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span><span style="font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif""></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal">In this scenario, there is no safe way to replace either of the two Morningstar controllers. Should someone drill through or damage the EMT in the wall or under the floor, there would be no way to turn off the feeder.</p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I don’t like putting HU361RBs on a roof. They must remain vertical and so they stick up too high and are hard to provide mounting for. Sola-deck units are another option, but they require integrating with shingles, not practical on this job or many others. I finally settled on a DC-Sunvolt PV-X16A-4X-RG disconnect as a possible solution. At $216 it is not out of range. The unit will provide means to turn off the feeders for service. I will report back on my impressions of the unit.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To distill this scenario, I don’t believe the code requires a disconnect, but I feel morally obligated to install one. I’d be interested in verification of the code interpretation and others response to similar situations.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I found no other options for rooftop disconnecting means that would be small, reasonably priced and not present a high profile. If there are products I don’t know about, I would be most grateful to receive your input.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">While researching the hardware I stumbled upon this article, linked below. It seems to present a real dilemma, but I am not convinced. Please remain skeptical as you read. It appears all of the links direct you to the same source.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/greatest-debacle-solar-pv-australias-rooftop-dc-isolator-lucas-sadler</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Thanks again to all of you for helpful advice and expertise. I learned about Sunvolt here, just one of many great suggestions.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sincerely,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">William Miller</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><img border="0" width="64" height="28" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.jpg@01D0F71F.FE45AB90" alt="Gradient Cap_mini"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><br>Lic 773985<br><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank">millersolar.com</a><br><a href="tel:805-438-5600" target="_blank">805-438-5600</a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br clear="all"></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal">-- </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Chris Mason</p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#888888">NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™</span><span style="color:#888888"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#222222">Solar Design Engineer</span><span style="color:#888888"></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#888888">Generac Generators Industrial technician</span><span style="color:#888888"></span></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.cometenergysystems.com" target="_blank">www.cometsolar.com</a></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">264.235.5670</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">869.662.5670</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Skype: netconcepts</p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>