<p dir="ltr">I have been in attics and had to chase down water leaks, I have moved the hardware from older (15 + years) and there are a lot over leaks from the "before flashing days" and what I have seen is that once you remove the hardware, the bracket comes loose very easy as all or near all of the comp has cracked away from the surrounding material and there is a clear shot to the wood. Flashing is a must in my book<br>
Jerry</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 25, 2015 3:41 PM, "frenergy" <<a href="mailto:frenergy@psln.com">frenergy@psln.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><u></u>
<div lang="EN-US" vlink="purple" link="blue" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div>I've dancing around the perimeter of this discussion but now wish to make
that one more not to flash. There are many ways to do any job. I have been
attaching things to roofs and cutting holes in roofs for a
couple trades for 38 years and have yet to discover (or have a customer
discover and contact me) any damage from water. When attaching feet to a
roof for a PV rail system, I do not flash...I have but can't justify the
time and cost for my perceived lack of benefit. When I cut a hole in a roof, I
flash.</div>
<div> </div>
<div> I think its all about the correct
caulking for the particular kind of roofing material (one type does not fit
all), proper preparation of the attachment location, insuring there is plenty of
wood for the fastener, laying a liberal bead and proper torque of the
fastener. $.02</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Bill</div>
<div>Feather River Solar Electric<br>4291 Nelson St.<br>Taylorsville, CA
95983<br><a href="tel:530.284.7849" value="+15302847849" target="_blank">530.284.7849</a> / 6544 fax</div>
<div>solar powered since 1982</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><b>From:</b> <a title="dyoung@dovetailsolar.com" href="mailto:dyoung@dovetailsolar.com" target="_blank">Daniel Young</a> </div>
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT:0px;PADDING-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">'RE-wrenches'</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:19
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or
not to flash</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Figured
I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it as a
poll, of sorts.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">My
final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to
flash.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Those
who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side that
would be OK with the other option.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">I’m
still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the
client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $
difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some
liability off of me </span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings">J</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">”).
We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It’s not the same type of
comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a lower cost, they
know how they’re getting it, and future calls from the client should get
tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment
method.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Some
really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who
participated.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">With
Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">Daniel
Young, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'">NABCEP
Certified PV Installation Professional<sup>TM</sup>: Cert
#031508-90<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:11pt;COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif'"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> RE-wrenches
[mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason
Szumlanski<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM<br><b>To:</b>
RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to
flash<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really
got me thinking and researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not
really define "penetration," but it does say in the shingle
manual:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">"Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations
that need to be flashed into asphalt shingle roof<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans,
furnace or water heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and
others."<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There is also a graphical figure showing these various
penetrations. The one thing these all have in common is that there is a
substantial air gap cut fully through the roof plane.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle
roofs use exposed fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA
manual says about this:<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">"Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric
sealant or asphalt roof cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the
intersection of hips to a ridge and at the intersection of a ridge to another
plane."<u></u><u></u></p></div></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which
allows attachments sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with
sealants.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Until the manual specifically addressed the solar
"attachments" and "fasteners" we are debating about, it's open to
interpretation.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski <<a href="mailto:jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com" target="_blank">jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings" target="_blank">http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings</a><u></u><u></u></p></div></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree
that were talking semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied
liberally in practice. The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal
roof must be flashings, otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be
prohibited, right? Same goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless
you don't call fasteners penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar
attachment fasteners to a different standard. There are plenty of metal roof
products that are sealed (flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo,
Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), that are successfully implemented in real world
scenarios.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">There are really two issues here: clarifying what is
acceptable from a code perspective, and industry best practices. Martini
shaken or stirred? We're probably not going to agree on a single solution as
an industry.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my
preference, but I don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think "unflashed"
fasteners are completely unacceptable.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#888888"><br clear="all"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#888888">Jason<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen <<a href="mailto:kjenergysystems@gmail.com" target="_blank">kjenergysystems@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt">Not that the names of things
matter that much but imho "flashing" does require an overlapping of some kind.
An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded fitting than a flashing. It
relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane whereas flashings rely
mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an experienced roofer weigh in
on this.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#888888">Kurt
Johnsen</span><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski <<a href="mailto:jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com" target="_blank">jason@floridasolardesigngroup.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">"If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an
uphill material lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing.
"<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a
plumbing vent on a metal roof.<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just sayin'...<u></u><u></u></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#888888"><br>Jason
Szumlanski<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#888888"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller <<a href="mailto:william.miller@millersolar.com" target="_blank">william.miller@millersolar.com</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:medium none;PADDING-LEFT:6pt;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;MARGIN-LEFT:4.8pt;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1pt solid;MARGIN-RIGHT:0in;PADDING-TOP:0in;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Ray:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">I have to
respectfully disagree with your semantics. A flashing is an
overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt
water off of the roof. This is a universally accepted waterproofing
method that does not depend on any sealant material. The concept is as
ancient as the first, crude, thatched roof.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">If you place a
flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material lapping over the
downhill object, you are not flashing. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">What you have
described is sealant-dependent weatherproofing. Regardless of the
quality of the sealant, or lack thereof, I don’t think you can call it a
flashed attachment.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">(The overarching
point is a flashed attachment does not depend on a sealant. Any
sealant has a finite lifespan. Removing the sealant variable from the
equation results in more lasting installation.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Sincerely,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">William
Miller</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"><img height="28" alt="Gradient Cap_mini" src="cid:AE0B2635E7194C42B1546A311BD897CC@D8XG8YH1" width="64" border="0"><br>Lic 773985<br><a href="http://www.millersolar.com/" target="_blank">millersolar.com</a><br><a href="tel:805-438-5600" target="_blank">805-438-5600</a></span><u></u><u></u></p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> RE-wrenches
[mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Ray Walters<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 07, 2015 10:34
AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash
or not to flash</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt">My
opinion is that if the L foot has enough surface area it constitutes a
flashing, and that large flashings can actually cause more damage to the
roof than they prevent.<br>I also agree that an attachement doesn't
constitute a penetration. I just finished an install on a metal roof
with hundreds of screw holes. We added a few more screw holes, and
ours have 20 times the sealant surface area. We did run a 1" conduit
through the roof, and since it was an actual penetration, we used a very
expensive flexible boot flashing.<br>Personally, I think we need about a
3"x3" or 4" x 4" L foot with a double stick butyl tape on the bottom, and
all will be well.<br>I realize that the OP was referring to asphalt, but I
will flash other roof types that don't do well with L feet ( like
shake).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="TEXT-ALIGN:center" align="center">
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