<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Rapid shut down, should be the direction we as off/grid or on grid BB installers should be moving towards..... kinda like my flashing rant, we are in the 21st century and we ARE professionals! We as an industry should be more concerned about fire fighters and their safety BEFORE they goose step their ideas into industry requirements, like they did in Mass. Educating your fire fighters as to the location of the bird house and locking it would be a quick solution to the malicious shutting off of a system. FF do carry and do use bolt cutters.<div><br><div><div><div>On Aug 26, 2015, at 7:26 PM, Ray Walters wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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I spoke with Phil Undercuffler from Outback, who is a long term
respected member of our list (and nice guy). He basically said
there is a lot of misinformation on 690.12, but essentially it
should only be applied to roof mounted PV, and that it is
specifically to address firefighters' need to quickly vent the roof
in the event of a fire. This original intent has nothing to do with
ground mounted PV, batteries, backup inverter power, etc. Bill's
more encompassing interpretation holds solar installers to a much
higher standard than other electrical installations. UPS and backup
generator systems for instance, that do not include PV, do not have
to worry about Rapid Shutdown.<br>
690.71 requiring a disconnect near the batteries, is still
applicable, but it is really unclear how exactly the 5 ft should be
measured. The battery combiner box from Midnite is what I was
looking for, Thanks Tump. I plan to have breakers on the 2 separate
parallel battery strings, so I think I will be able to make the 5 ft
rule. Before, the furthest inverter disconnect was definitely going
to be beyond 5 ft from the battery. I am still considering
including the battery disconnects in the Rapid Shutdown system, but
as Phil pointed out: this defeats the purpose of having a backup
system, if anyone can just walk up to the outside of the house, push
a button, and shut down all your critical loads. <br>
Once again, its all going to come down to the AHJ's view, though I
will do my part to put him in touch with folks like Phil, who as the
manufacturer's rep of the UL listed product has some say on how
their equipment is to be installed.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/26/2015 4:44 PM, Tump wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:1C98F776-EEBF-4A47-A4D8-07A36D7CE6A1@swnl.net" type="cite">I know that IF the SMA SI master inverter is shut
down then all follow, shunt trip breaker only for the master? Also
look at the Midnite <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; font-weight: bold; "><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=439&productCatName=Battery%20Accessories&productCat_ID=39&sortOrder=4&act=p">MNBCB
1000/50</a></span>
<div style="margin:0 0 0px 0;"> (Previous Model Num:
MNBCB-1000/50-Battery Combiner) </div>
<div style="margin: 10px 0 10px 0;> <span style=" color:black;="" '=""> MidNite 1000amp battery combiner box<br>
Includes a 1000amp Positive and Negative bus bar with 3/8 inch
studs.</div>
<div>
<div>On Aug 26, 2015, at 3:39 PM, Ray Walters wrote:</div>
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<div>Hi Wrenches;<br>
<br>
I have an upcoming project to be inspected, ,and having
spent too much time on off grid and out of country work, I'm
now playing catch up with the new 690.12 and 690.71(H)
requirements.<br>
The proposed GTB system is 3 Radians with a ground mounted
18kW array and large HUP battery bank. I just read a Bill
Brooks article that basically says that Rapid Shutdown not
only applies to ground mounted arrays that come into
buildings, but also applies to battery cables if longer than
5 ft.<br>
There are 690.12 compliant combiners from Midnite that work
with their Birdhouse system, so I think I've got a handle on
the array requirements (more or less).<br>
What is stumping me is how to feed three 8kW inverters from
a large battery, and install auto disconnect breakers within
5 ft.<br>
1) the disconnect has to be large enough, Midnite only makes
a 250 amp remote trip breaker, so I'd have to parallel 3 of
these?<br>
2) 690.71(H)3 says the breaker can't be in the battery
enclosure, which is tricky since the enclosure is 160" long
from one end to the other with 2 parallel strings.<br>
3) I'm having trouble even finding an enclosure for 3 large
DC breakers (Flex 1000 is the only thing I know of) and to
get the enclosure close enough is an issue too.<br>
I just got off the phone with Tech support at Outback and
they don't seem to have any Rapid Shutdown gear ready.<br>
Are inspectors actually requiring this yet, or because of
the lack of available UL listed products, can we take a pass
on at least some of the requirements? Another strategy the
Outback tech thought of is to put all the equipment into a
shipping container and then its not in or on a "building",
and 690.12 doesn't apply.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
R.Ray Walters<br>
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
Licensed Master Electrician<br>
Solar Design Engineer<br>
303 505-8760<br>
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