<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">This is a good representation of poor battery design. Reducing the # of strings by increasing the capacity of the battery should always be considered. Yes this is a cheap way to go but in the long run this type of install can be very expensive. Without someone as experienced as Jarmo, the installer may never have figured this out. LESS STRINGS & more Ahours = less interconnects & potential for inductance and gives one far better performance charging & discharging. One bad cell and one is chasing their tail for quite a while w/ this install.<br><div><div>On Jun 29, 2015, at 6:28 PM, <a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com">Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Hi:</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">I'm not sure how much trouble this has
caused, so that's why I asked the question. With large battery banks,
it is possible to end up with a cabling layout which has a potentially
very large loop area as was the case at one of the sites where I saw problems.
Here's a picture of the battery bank they had created.</font>
<br>
<br><span><Mail Attachment.gif></span>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">The + and - cables were not run side
by side and the rack is made out of steel. The inverters did not
like it until we ran the cables along the battery bank and then side by
side. Once that was done, things worked as expected.</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">JARMO<br>
</font><font size="3" color="#008000">_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size="3">
<br>
</font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b><br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size="1" color="#008000" face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b> | Xantrex
Brand</b> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Sales Application
Engineer</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +604-422-2528 | <b>Tech Support:</b> 800-670-0707
| <b>Mobile:</b> +604-505-0291 <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href="http://www.xantrex.com/" target="_blank"><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>
www.Xantrex.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="Arial"> |
<b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 <br>
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">From:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Ray Walters <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>></font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>>,
</font>
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">06/29/2015 03:05 PM</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter
Wiring</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>></font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<hr noshade="">
<br>
<br>
<br><font size="3">This is fascinating because while I knew the DC cables
had an AC component, I never realized how much inductance played
in the volt drop to the inverter. Thanks for bringing this to our
attention Jarmo. <br>
Which brings up another question based on Benn's question: isn't
the battery itself part of the inductive loop? and would the lead
inside and steel cases act to increase the inductance? Should we
consider changing battery layouts not just to shorten cable lengths, but
to counter inductance in the batteries themselves? If needed, we
could actually wire the batteries to "twist" by putting every
other 2 v cell in the opposite row. <br>
My guess is that it wouldn't be worth it, but I've been wrong many times.......<br>
</font>
<br><tt><font size="3">R.Ray Walters<br>
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, <br>
Licensed Master Electrician<br>
Solar Design Engineer<br>
303 505-8760</font></tt>
<br><font size="3">On 6/29/2015 3:55 PM, Benn Kilburn wrote:</font>
<br><font size="3">What about when you have the (+) and (-) terminals at
opposite ends of a larger battery bank? Sure you can run the conductors
side-by-side once they meet up on their way to the inverter, but would
you consider the distance between the end terminals a "large loop"? </font>
<br><font size="3">Ideally the battery string is laid out so the end terminals
are close together and close to the inverter, but this isn't always the
case. <br>
</font>
<br><font size="3">Benn Kilburn</font>
<br><font size="3">SkyFire Energy Inc. </font>
<br><font size="3">780-906-7807</font>
<br>
<br><font size="3"><br>
On Jun 29, 2015, at 10:28 AM, </font><a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font size="3" color="blue"><u>Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size="3">
wrote:<br>
</font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Hi:</font><font size="3"> <br>
</font><font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
From the comments so far, it appears that within the wrenches group, good
practices are the rule and DC cables are kept side by side, so the problem
I mentioned hasn't come up much.</font><font size="3"> <br>
</font><font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
I have seen "large loop" battery cables a couple of times in
solar installs myself out on islands way down south. Also on boats/RV's/motor
homes.</font><font size="3"> <br>
</font><font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
Please keep the cable loop in mind when you do bench tests of inverters,
as it may screw up the results and make it seem like there is something
wrong with the inverter.</font><font size="3"> <br>
</font><font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
JARMO</font><font size="3" color="#008000"><br>
_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size="3">
</font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b><br>
<br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size="1" color="#008000" face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b> | Xantrex
Brand</b> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Sales Application
Engineer</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +604-422-2528 | <b>Tech Support:</b> 800-670-0707
| <b>Mobile:</b> +604-505-0291 <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href="http://www.xantrex.com/" target="_blank"><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>
www.Xantrex.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="Arial"> |
<b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 </font>
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</font>
</td><td width="86%"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"</font><a href="mailto:boB@midnitesolar.com"><font size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u>boB@midnitesolar.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"
<</font><a href="mailto:boB@midnitesolar.com"><font size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u>boB@midnitesolar.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="sans-serif">></font><font size="3">
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches <</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size="1" face="sans-serif">>,
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<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">06/28/2015 10:30 PM</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter
Wiring</font><font size="3"> </font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" <</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size="1" face="sans-serif">></font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br><font size="3"><br>
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<hr noshade=""><font size="3"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:<br>
>>>>I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting
would make in<br>
the absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC.<<<<<br>
<br>
It is little known that with the typical inverters that use the heavy power
transformers,<br>
have a lot of AC 120 Hz (or 100 Hz for 50 Hz systems) current mixed in
with that DC battery current.<br>
<br>
The AC output current reflects back to the input as ripple current.
This is why you want to<br>
have at least short as possible Sbattery cable runs AND keep the wires
as close together as possible.<br>
<br>
Twisting the battery cables may help a bit but that is probably overkill.<br>
<br>
The problem has to do with inductance in the battery cables. You
can use as big of cable<br>
as you can fit in to reduce resistance, but that will not help to lower
the inductance.<br>
The problems you can sometimes have with high inductance is that L-C resonance
at the<br>
inverter can raise the peak voltages seen at the inverter input terminals
and can be hard on<br>
the inverter.<br>
<br>
Then again, the high frequency, lighter weight inverters will typically
keep most of that ripple<br>
inside, between the DC input and AC output and battery cable inductance
will not be as much<br>
of a problem on the battery cables.<br>
<br>
boB Gudgel<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/28/2015 9:20 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote: <br>
As a matter of course I have always run the positive and negative conductors
of high-current cable pairs together, but have never deliberately twisted
them, and have never known of any related problems. <br>
The most obvious example of this would be 4/0 battery/inverter cables in
a 24V system, with a 250A GJ-class breaker or (prior to that) a 300A or
400A Class T fuse. It's pretty tough to thread a twisted pair of 4/0 USE/RHH/RHW
cables through a 2" elbow or LB from inverter enclosure to battery
enclosure.<br>
I'm not an EE, but I can't see what difference twisting would make in the
absence of a building/collapsing field as is normal with AC. <br>
I have twisted AC conductors together in the past when clients have expressed
concerns about EMF from their equipment and wiring, but only AC.<br>
Allan</font><p><font size="3"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><font size="3" color="blue"><u><br>
</u></font><a href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com"><font size="2" color="blue"><u>allan@sindelarsolar.com</u></font></a><font size="2"><br>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.<b><br>
505 780-2738 cell</b></font>
</p><div><font size="3"> </font>
<br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p><font size="3">On 6/27/2015 2:40 AM, John wrote: </font><font size="2" face="Cambria"><br>
That is why for years we have been twisting those leads around each other.
I was told it was to cancel out the opposing fields on the wires, but for
whatever the correct technical reason is, we have always twisted
those heavy wires. John
V.</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2" face="Cambria"><br>
</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b><br>
From:</b> RE-wrenches [</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font size="2" color="blue" face="Tahoma"><u>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size="2" face="Tahoma">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b></font><a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font size="2" color="blue" face="Tahoma"><u>Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b><br>
Sent:</b> Saturday, 27 June 2015 5:45 a.m.<b><br>
To:</b> RE-wrenches<b><br>
Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank to Inverter Wiring</font><font size="3">
</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
Hi:</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
From time to time over the years I've come across systems where the routing
of DC cables between the batteries and the inverter has been the cause
of issues.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
I'm not referring to wire thickness or quality of terminations. For
the purposes of this discussion, just assume that wire thickness and terminations
are perfect.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
What I am referring to is the routing of the positive and negative battery
cables. In particular, the loop area within the + and - cables as
shown in the image below,</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
The problem I've seen in systems with a large loop in the setup is that
the inverter does not provide good surge power and can even go into low
voltage shutdown during large surges.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Recently this happened again and I wanted to get a better feel for it,
so I did some math. </font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
For a cable length of about 12', the loop is an inductor which has a value
of inductance of about 1 uH for side by side cables and as much as 6 uH
for cables about 1 foot apart. </font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
This inductance is greatly multiplied by any ferrous metal in the loop
and can easily be in the range of 10's to 100's of uH. Examples being
cables which run in steel conduits or along the steel frame of a motor
home.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Inductance causes a voltage drop proportional to the rate at which the
current is changing. To get an idea of how large that rate can be
for typical inverters, I did surge tests with a 5kW inverter and found
that the rate of change of current can be as high as 100A per milli-second
or 100,000 Amps/second.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Given that, the voltage drop of the wire inductance is then , Vdrop = (rate
of change of current) x (inductance), <br>
<br>
Vdrop for 1 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 0.1V</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
Vdrop for 10 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 1.0V</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
Vdrop for 100 uH = (100,000 A/s) x (0.000001 H) = 10.0V clearly
this is a problem.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
Have any of the wrenches had systems with this issue? If so, how
often.</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size="2" face="Arial"><br>
<br>
JARMO</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"> </font>
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<br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html<br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br>www.members.re-wrenches.org<br><br></p></blockquote></div><br><div>
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