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      In addition, when someone leaves the system for long periods of
      time, the ending amps can help BUT that is<br>
      not the same as giving them a good de-sulfating Absorb cycle once
      in a while.<br>
      <br>
      This is where it is nice to give them a good Absorb for some hours
      without the ending amps but only<br>
      every so often.  Maybe once per week or two ?   Jay and I talked
      about a "Vacation Mode" a while back..<br>
      <br>
      The Classic can be set to skip a number of days of Bulk/Absorb
      cycles.   This works well.<br>
      You can also set a high battery temperature to stop charging at. 
      It's in one of the CHARGE menus.<br>
      <br>
      There are all sorts of neat things you could do to keep FLA
      batteries alive longer I think.<br>
      Like what Kent Osterberg in Oregon mentioned...   Every so many
      days, start a timed Absorb<br>
      after the current has fallen below ending amps.<br>
      <br>
      So many good ideas, so little time !<br>
      <br>
      boB<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 5/22/2015 10:17 AM, Dan Fink wrote:<br>
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cite="mid:CAF+3LnfPRVgagsFc1zsO5g6nJFFED3oF3CZJKBedoL9yh65_ig@mail.gmail.com"
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      <div dir="ltr">Bill; The Whizbang can mount on the main shunt, and
        has an included mounting option that lets you piggyback the
        wires from another amp-hourt meter on it. I have mine with a
        magnum ME-BMK piggybacked on it.</div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
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          <div class="gmail_signature">
            <div dir="ltr">Dan Fink
              <div>Buckville Energy</div>
              <div>IREC Certified Instructor™ for: </div>
              <div>~ PV Installation Professional</div>
              <div>~ Small Wind Installer</div>
              <div>NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education
                Providers™<br>
                970.672.4342<br>
                <br>
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        <div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 8:28 AM,
          frenergy <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:frenergy@psln.com" target="_blank">frenergy@psln.com</a>></span>
          wrote:<br>
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              <div>Hey Jay,</div>
              <div> </div>
              <div>        From what I've heard form battery manus, the
                C rates likely even in a well PV-ed system still will
                not produce C-rates high enough to approach a high or
                "longevity reducing" internal battery temp, assuming a
                typical bulk, absorb, float cycle.  Of course, battery
                environmental location (typical temps) would set a
                baseline from which batt temp would rise from.  Here in
                the Sierra, ambients are not very high 95% of the time.</div>
              <div> </div>
              <div>        Just curious, how does the wiz bang account
                for all loads...2 shunts?</div>
              <div> </div>
              <div>Thanks,</div>
              <div>Bill</div>
              <div>Feather River Solar Electric</div>
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                    <div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message
                      ----- </div>
                    <div style="BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4;FONT:10pt arial"><b>From:</b>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        title="jay.peltz@gmail.com"
                        href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com"
                        target="_blank">jay peltz</a> </div>
                    <div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
                        href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
                        target="_blank">RE-wrenches</a> </div>
                    <div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
                      May 21, 2015 8:07 PM</div>
                    <div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re:
                      [RE-wrenches] FLA battery setpoints with larger
                      arrays</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div dir="ltr">Hi Allan,
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>I like the classic/wiz bang jr.  This allows
                        really good end amp control as all loads are
                        accounted for.</div>
                      <div><br>
                      </div>
                      <div>Higher C rates equal higher internal temps
                        which definitely will shorten the life.<br>
                        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                          <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, May 21, 2015
                            at 10:56 AM, Allan Sindelar <span dir="ltr"><<a
                                moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com"
                                target="_blank">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a>></span>
                            wrote:<br>
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                                text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Wrenches,<br>
                                In the last few years I have changed my
                                approach to off grid system sizing,
                                primarily due to higher battery costs
                                and lower module costs. Rather than
                                shooting for a traditional 80-90% of
                                winter load profile target, I will size
                                a larger array and smaller battery bank,
                                figuring (especially here in the sunny
                                Southwest) that batteries will recharge
                                more quickly, will spend more of their
                                time full (and thus last longer), and
                                will be at least partially charged
                                during cloudy weather. This even allows
                                for smaller battery banks that are
                                cycled more deeply (as long as there's a
                                backup gennie in the mix); the lower
                                cost of a smaller size may allow for a
                                set of higher-quality industrial cells.<br>
                                <br>
                                I first began to rethink my design
                                approach after reading Christopher
                                Freitas' Solar Pro article on large
                                battery banks a few years ago. Being
                                able to refill in a day was part of his
                                strategic approach to battery bank
                                design. I used and wrote about this
                                approach in my tiny house article in the
                                current Home Power. However, I'm just
                                beginning to get owner feedback about
                                greater water consumption and the need
                                for more frequent watering. This is
                                especially the case when I add array to
                                an existing system, and the old watering
                                schedule is suddenly not enough. <br>
                                <br>
                                When I design new systems I now
                                encourage larger arrays and smaller
                                battery banks, as the batteries spend
                                more of their time happily full and
                                recover more quickly after a discharge
                                period. But I am thinking that I will
                                have to begin changing charging
                                setpoints in response. Flooded batteries
                                have a range of recommended bulk
                                setpoints, from 28.8 to 29.6 volts on a
                                24V system. When arrays were smaller we
                                set to the higher end of the range to
                                take advantage of topping off when
                                available, and a two hour or longer
                                absorption was considered beneficial, as
                                long as the CC could transition to float
                                at 2% of capacity or so. With a larger
                                array a better approach may be to lower
                                the bulk/absorption setting, as well as
                                reduce absorption time and raise the
                                float transition current ("done amps").
                                <br>
                                <br>
                                I'm writing to encourage a discussion
                                among off grid Wrenches. Are you
                                changing the relative relationship
                                between array and battery capacities? If
                                so, how are you adjusting charge
                                controller setpoint programming? For
                                example, how would you program a Midnite
                                Classic, Outback FM or Schneider XW if
                                you could achieve a C/10 or C/15 charge
                                rate?<br>
                                <br>
                                Thanks, Allan<span><font color="#888888"><br>
                                    <div>
                                      <div>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan
                                            Sindelar</b><br>
                                          <span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt"><a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com"
                                              target="_blank">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a></span><br>
                                          <span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt">NABCEP
                                            Certified PV Installation
                                            Professional<br>
                                            NABCEP Certified Technical
                                            Sales Professional<br>
                                            New Mexico EE98J Journeyman
                                            Electrician<br>
                                            Founder (Retired), <span>Positive
                                              Energy, Inc.</span><br>
                                            <b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:505%20780-2738" value="+15057802738" target="_blank">505
                                                780-2738</a> cell</b></span>--
                                          <br>
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                                <div dir="ltr">
                                  <div>Jay Peltz<br>
                                    Peltz Power<br>
                                    <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      href="mailto:jay.peltz@gmail.com"
                                      target="_blank">jay.peltz@gmail.com</a><br>
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