<font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The C40 circuit is a really simple circuit
made up of a set of resistors, capacitors, op-amps, a time-base crystal
and PWM. Simple electronic components, so I don't see drift issues,
except maybe under large temperature changes.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">What does change a lot is the intensity
of the sun and thereby the Voc, Vmp, Imp, etc. of the module/array.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Given that the PWM applies the varying
"raw" available array voltage/current directly to the battery,
I think that's how the output voltage variation issue arises.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">It's an idea. It may be right
or wrong. Some trials would be needed to prove or disprove it.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">JARMO <br>
</font><font size=3 color=#008000>_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size=3>
<br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><b><br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size=1 color=#008000 face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size=1 face="Arial"><b> | Xantrex
Brand</b> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Sales Application
Engineer</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +604-422-2528 | <b>Tech Support:</b> 800-670-0707
| <b>Mobile:</b> +604-505-0291 <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href=http://www.xantrex.com/ target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>
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<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Steve Bell <sbell@morningstarcorp.com></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>,
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/21/2015 09:25 AM</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex C-40 Drifting</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></font></table>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>Hello Wrenches,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3>I have been following this C-40 drifting thread. From
my personal experience the C-40 always had about a 0.2 to 0.4 volt drift
since the early days (1994-95). This was on a 48-volt system, so the drift
might be less at lower battery voltages. The drift was not a simple mis-calibration;
one day 0.3 volt high, another day 0.4 volts low.</font>
<br><font size=3>I don't know if this is a component of the problem, but
thought I would mention it.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3>Best Regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3>Steve Bell</font>
<br><font size=3> </font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 7:34 PM, <</font><a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com" target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue><u>Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size=3>>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi:</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
My thought is that the mechanism by which the battery voltage slowly rises
under the influence of a solar module connected through a C40 type PWM
controller is due to the fact that the PWM type controllers don't regulate
voltage but rather connect the full output voltage of the module/array
to the battery on a pulse width limited basis.</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Seems that those high voltage pulses, brief as they may be thanks to the
PWM, are still none the less able to slowly raise the resting terminal
voltage of at least some types of AGM batteries.</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I don't know enough about batteries to know if that is a problem or not.
Perhaps its perfectly normal as almost any new lead acid battery will retain
a higher than normal measurable "ghost voltage" just after it
has been fully charged.</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
JARMO</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
</font><font size=3 color=#008000><br>
_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><b><br>
<br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size=1 color=#008000 face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size=1 face="Arial"><b> | Xantrex
Brand</b> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Sales Application
Engineer</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> </font><a href="tel:%2B604-422-2528" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>+604-422-2528</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">
| <b>Tech Support:</b> </font><a href="tel:800-670-0707" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>800-670-0707</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">
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<b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href=http://www.xantrex.com/ target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>
www.Xantrex.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial"> |
<b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 </font>
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<tr valign=top>
<td width=13%><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td width=86%><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Drake <</font><a href=mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="sans-serif">></font><font size=3>
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches <</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="sans-serif">>,
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/20/2015 11:11 AM</font><font size=3>
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw: Xantrex
C-40 Drifting</font><font size=3> </font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" <</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="sans-serif">></font></table>
<br><font size=3><br>
</font>
<hr noshade>
<br><font size=3><br>
<br>
<br>
The modules are Sunwise 22 V, 40 W modules. The model number of the
modules is </font><font size=2>SW-S40P SWT. The are wired in series
for a 24 V nominal system. That would be an mppt voltage of 44 V
on a system that directs batteries to absorb at 29.4 volts. I'm not sure
what the NOCT voltage would be, but it would seem like it would be an ok
fit? </font><font size=3><br>
<br>
I think you are on the right track with the MPPT charging graph. The CC
likely allows pulses of full charge to hit when the batteries are at their
maximum set point voltage. <br>
<br>
Would a very short pulse of high voltage be a problem of a VRLA battery?
Could any significant gassing take place? <br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Drake <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 06:04 PM 5/19/2015, you wrote: </font><font size=2><br>
Hi:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
<br>
We haven't changed anything the in C40. The essence of my idea was
that perhaps the "trouble" systems are the ones which have much
higher module Voc versus battery Vfloat.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
<br>
JARMO</font><font size=3 color=#008000><br>
_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=1><b><br>
<br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size=1 color=#008000><b>Schneider
Electric </b></font><font size=1><b> | Xantrex Brand</b> |
<b>CANADA</b> | <b>Sales Application Engineer</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> </font><a href="tel:%2B604-422-2528" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue><u>+604-422-2528</u></font></a><font size=1>
| <b>Tech Support:</b> </font><a href="tel:800-670-0707" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue><u>800-670-0707</u></font></a><font size=1>
| <b>Mobile:</b> </font><a href="tel:%2B604-505-0291" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue><u>+604-505-0291</u></font></a><font size=1>
<b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size=1>
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href=http://www.xantrex.com/ target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue><u>
</u></font></a><a href=http://www.xantrex.com/ target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue><u>www.Xantrex.com</u></font></a><font size=1 color=blue><u>
</u></font><font size=1> | <b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way,
Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 </font><font size=3 color=blue><u><br>
</u></font><a href=http://www.xantrex.com/ target=_blank><img src=cid:_1_0D645A7C0D643DF4005C45D488257E4C width=166 height=55 alt=[]></a><a href=https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue><u> </u></font><img src=cid:_1_0D645EC80D643DF4005C45D488257E4C width=36 height=55 alt=[]></a><a href=https://twitter.com/Xantrex target=_blank><img src=cid:_1_0D6462FC0D643DF4005C45D488257E4C width=38 height=55 alt=[]></a><a href=https://twitter.com/Xantrex target=_blank><img src=cid:_1_0D6467300D643DF4005C45D488257E4C width=303 height=55 alt=[]></a><font size=1 color=#00a000><br>
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From:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=1>Ray Walters <</font><a href=mailto:ray@solarray.com target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue><u>ray@solarray.com</u></font></a><font size=1>></font><font size=3>
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f><br>
To:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=1>RE-wrenches <</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue><u>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size=1>>,
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f><br>
Date:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=1>05/19/2015 11:00 AM</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f><br>
Subject:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=1>Re: [RE-wrenches] Fw:
Xantrex C-40 Drifting</font><font size=3> </font><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f><br>
Sent by:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=1>"RE-wrenches"
<</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size=1>></font><font size=3>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Jarmo;<br>
<br>
Early solar systems actually tried to use the principle of matching array
Vmpp to battery voltage in lieu of charge controllers. The
biggest issue is that when it is is hot the module voltage can drop below
the battery voltage needed, and when its cold the voltage will still be
too high. Batteries were either over charged or never reached full
charge depending on the conditions.<br>
I've used the C40 successfully for decades, so I'm wondering if the circuitry
changed recently, or if different tolerance components were substituted
that may be causing the drift?<br>
<br>
Thanks, </font><tt><font size=3><br>
R.Ray Walters<br>
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, <br>
Licensed Master Electrician<br>
Solar Design Engineer</font></tt><tt><font size=3 color=blue><u><br>
</u></font></tt><a href="tel:303%20505-8760" target=_blank><tt><font size=3 color=blue><u>303
505-8760</u></font></tt></a><font size=3> <br>
On 5/19/2015 10:31 AM, </font><a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com" target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue><u>Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size=3 color=blue>
</font><font size=3>wrote: </font><font size=2><br>
Hi:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
<br>
I didn't know that there were systems out there where a PWM charge controller
such as the C-40 was producing an unhealthy, high battery voltage.
Since there are, I may have a possible explanation.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
<br>
The C-series and other PWM type charge controllers operate by PWM whereby
they very very quickly connect/disconnect the solar module to the battery
bank. The amount of time which the module is connected to the array
is the PWM on-period. These controllers do not have the ability to
"smooth out" the output voltage. All they can do is apply
the full module voltage OR not a</font><font size=3> <br>
<br>
<br>
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