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I used an Ecogen recently, and I liked many aspects of it. However
the continuous draw of the on board electronics is just ridiculous
for an off grid generator.<br>
A 15 w solar module charging the start battery was barely able to
keep up with the draw. Running AC off the inverter to the generator
is also just another unnecessary 24/7 phantom load.<br>
We may be 20 years into the future, but no one has built a generator
that can hold a candle to the old water cooled, 1800 RPM Kohlers.
Most of those are still in service, and had simple 2 wire start.
The Ecogen's onboard computer is a serious design flaw IMO. We
don't need the generator to "think" in an off grid system; we
already have inverters that do a much better job of that. The
generator just needs to start reliably when its called upon. <br>
I would appreciate if someone with more experience with the Ecogens
could explain why the on board electronics are good, or...... how to
bypass them completely. <br>
We had a great off grid generator solution 2 decades ago, and the
closer today's manufacturers can get back to that, the better we and
our customers will all be.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/9/2015 2:40 PM, Gary Willett
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:5526E3D0.1060202@IcarusSolarServices.com"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
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Dana:<br>
<br>
Take a look at the new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built
for a renewable energy system* <br>
<small><i>* including an inverter, battery bank and alternative
energy power source</i></small><br>
<br>
<small><small><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf">http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf</a><br>
</small></small><br>
The 15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only)
and is natural gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant
frequency / variable speed AVR based on electrical demand. <br>
<br>
Also, 500 run hours between oil changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour
warranty.<br>
<small><small><a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf">http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf</a></small></small><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Gary Willett<br>
Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I agree
but full load charging usually only lasts but a few
minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as
voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the
point is why we are installing air cooled throw away
generators that run so fast & hot that they need to be
replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed
at 80 MPH?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Is there
a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW
generator out there?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:#002060">----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Dana
Orzel <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Great
Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">E - <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>
- Web - solarwork.com <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">O -
970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">"Responsible
Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" </span><span
style="font-family:"Century
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:navy">
</span><span
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Jerry Shafer [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com">mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>;
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up
generators<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We don't install anything smaller
then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the
numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max
potential load and max potential charge as when the
batteries are low the genny must not only supply the
home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable
rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has
enough to maintain that load then what about the
batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for
optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am
sure every shop has there own math. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank">dana@solarwork.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Hey
All – </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I
just got off of a phone call with my Onan
generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler
was the same story basically.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I
was informed that their smallest water cooled
generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer
“rated “for off grid. They actually called me to
confirm that this generator was for backup power
to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4
generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code
what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours
of run time for standby power and maintenance per
year. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Q
- Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for
something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just
fine?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">A
- The EPA current requirements, a shrinking
economy, & manufacturers that have to meet
very expensive air quality compliance. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">The
Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby
power only” generator the fine is now $39,000 per
day! </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Now
I am far from a polluting kind of individual and
all for air quality but this is getting the best
of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only
good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20
years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I
hate having the “Generator” talk with a new client
they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled
units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units
are way more than we need and what a client needs
to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">If
you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/-
x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation
factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator.
Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM =
40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller,
ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that
would be acceptable. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">So,
why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22
KW water generators?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">There
is a business opportunity here folks.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">What
are you all installing?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Why?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Is
it reliable?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Would
you use it on your house?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks
for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:#002060">----------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Dana
Orzel</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Great
Solar Works, Inc - <b>NABCEP # 051112-136</b></span></u><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">E</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank">dana@solarwork.com</a>
- <b>Web</b> - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://solarwork.com" target="_blank">solarwork.com</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">O</span></b><span
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Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">
- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:970.626.5253" target="_blank">970.626.5253</a>
<b>C </b>- <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:208.721.7003" target="_blank">208.721.7003</a>
- No FAX Line</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><u><span
style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">"Responsible
Technologies for Responsible People since
1988" </span></u></b><o:p></o:p></p>
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style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:navy">
</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Please
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<p class="MsoNormal"
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Change listserver email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out or update participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
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