<html><body><span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000000; font-size:10pt;"><div>Someone with more brain power than me might disagree, but based just on shear physics, gallon for gallon, diesel has about twice the energy as LP gas for about the same cost per gallon. Water cooled is much easier to scavenge clean heat from than air cooled. We do have a gob of LP gen sets out there, but we also have several diesel gensets as well. We have several Izusu units, One 25k Cat, one 1800 RPM Lister and a 720 RPM one lunger Lister. Both Listers are plumbed into the house heating system. The one Lunger is set up on it's own heat zone from the heat storage tank so it never gets cold. As I understand it, the trick to running diesel is they don't like to run unloaded very long. They do best at about 75%. So you gotta figure out how to keep them loaded. Good Luck. db<br></div><div><br></div><div><br>Dan Brown<br>Foxfire Energy Corp.<br>Renewable Energy Systems<br>(802)-483-2564<br><a href="http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com">www.Foxfire-Energy.com</a><br>NABCEP #092907-44</div><div><img id="sigimg0" title="signature image" src="cid:sigimg0@713f193ee6e94be7643c6329edcacb0f" alt="" border="0"></div><div><br><br></div>
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Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators<br>
From: RE Ellison <<a href="mailto:reellison@gmail.com">reellison@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Thu, April 09, 2015 2:51 pm<br>
To: "<a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>>, RE-wrenches<br>
<<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
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<div>I haven't looked lately but check out hardy diesels, 16 kW three cylinder Perkins<br><br>I have some customers that are real happy with them they have enough power to run charging and the household loads of the same time</div><div><br></div><div>The price only hurts for a little while<br><br><div>Bob Ellison</div></div><div><br>On Apr 9, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Dana <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite" style="border-left: blue 2px solid; margin-left: 8px; padding-left: 8px;"><div><style>
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</style><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I agree but full load charging usually only lasts but a few minutes as the inverter charge rate drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the point is why we are installing air cooled throw away generators that run so fast & hot that they need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention the fuel consumed at 80 MPH?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Is there a slow speed (1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator out there?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#002060">----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Dana Orzel <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">E - <a target="_blank" href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a> - Web - <a target="_blank" href="http://solarwork.com">solarwork.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" </span><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Please consider the environment before printing this email.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Jerry Shafer [<a target="_blank" href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com">mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a target="_blank" href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a>; RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle. This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Jerry <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana <<a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank">dana@solarwork.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Hey All – </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I just got off of a phone call with my Onan generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story basically.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">I was informed that their smallest water cooled generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time for standby power and maintenance per year. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just fine?</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality compliance. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby power only” generator the fine is now $39,000 per day! </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the “Generator” talk with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft el.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/- x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an 8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM = 40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800 rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22 KW water generators?</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">There is a business opportunity here folks.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">What are you all installing?</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Why?</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Is it reliable?</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Would you use it on your house?</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks for sharing all the wisdom and knowledge.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:#002060">----------------------------------------------------------------------------</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Dana Orzel</span></b><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><u><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">Great Solar Works, Inc - <b>NABCEP # 051112-136</b></span></u><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">E</span></b><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> - <a href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target="_blank">dana@solarwork.com</a> - <b>Web</b> - <a href="http://solarwork.com" target="_blank">solarwork.com</a> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">O</span></b><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black"> - <a href="tel:970.626.5253" target="_blank">970.626.5253</a> <b>C </b>- <a href="tel:208.721.7003" target="_blank">208.721.7003</a> - No FAX Line</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b><u><span style="font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif";color:black">"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" </span></u></b><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;background:white"><b><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Webdings;color:green">P</span></b><span style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:navy"> </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:green">Please consider the environment before printing this email.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br><br>List Address: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change listserver email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out or update participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" style="border-left: blue 2px solid; margin-left: 8px; padding-left: 8px;"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>List sponsored by Redwood Alliance</span><br><span></span><br><span>List Address: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Change listserver email address & settings:</span><br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List-Archive: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List rules & etiquette:</span><br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Check out or update participant bios:</span><br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br></div></blockquote><hr>_______________________________________________<br>
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