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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=700292003-10042015>I'll
echo the avoid Generac, at least under 50 kW or so. When people are price
shopping between cheapo generators I sarcastically suggest they get 3 of the
cheap ones, then there is a good chance one will actually work when needed.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2>The 10 year ago model of the Onan / Cummins RS12,000 was a
great LPG generator. Then they went and put a fancy computer board in them with
the associated parasitic power draw issue so made it no longer suited to
off-grid. </FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2>We have been using the <SPAN class=700292003-10042015>Cummins
Onan </SPAN>Commercial Mobile series for many remote off-grid sites<SPAN
class=700292003-10042015> recreational or commercial ie repeaters. 2880
RPM. </SPAN>Available in 2.5, 3.6, 5.5 and 6.5 kW sizes<SPAN
class=700292003-10042015>, LPG or gasoline. </SPAN>Three wire <SPAN
class=700292003-10042015>remote </SPAN>start units that just work. Just a bit
small for larger sites, where we typically move into a diesel. <SPAN
class=700292003-10042015>We have several dozen of them out there and they work
reliably. The models have been the same for many years, these are used by OEM's
for integration into all manner of RVs, ambulances, etc. Have many units over
7,000 hrs of operation. They start pretty reliably down to -30oC.
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT
size=2><SPAN
class=700292003-10042015></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><SPAN
class=700292003-10042015></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=700292003-10042015>For customers who
are in it for the long haul with larger power demands I generally move them
to a small 1800 RPM diesel, Kubota, Isuzu, Yanmar brands. Install it properly
maintain it properly and will get at least 30,000 hrs from it. Twice the cost to
buy but half the cost to run. Wins in the long haul. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=700292003-10042015></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=243333921-09042015><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=700292003-10042015>Kevin</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dana<BR><B>Sent:</B> April 9, 2015 2:18 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'RE-wrenches'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up
generators<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">I
am going out on a limb here - In 26 years of installing generators I have only
seen (2) Generacs that were actually working, one was a 30 KW and the other
smaller. I have removed/replaced in excess of (25) Generacs that have died for
a variety of issues: fire, controller blew up, engine seized (several times)
over that time span.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">Primarily
because the owners were totally fed up with getting them fixed and having to
rent a temp replacement while the wreck was in the shop. For some of these
people they had to drive 2+ hours each way to get it to an approved service
center. Enough said I will stop there.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">I
am aware of the ECOGen and again it is 2,700 to 3,600 RPM. 3,600 RPM is 80
miles per hour with an air cooled engine. How do you expect long and
reliable life there?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">Interesting
on the 2000 hour warranty that seems to be the hour limit on most air cooled
3,600 rpm unit where they fail, & Oil changes at 40,000 miles exceeds
AMSOILs synthetic 25,000 mile best oil rating by 15,000 miles. However the
prior 26 years of experience have taught me to be very careful
here.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">I
am curious as to actual life on these units and other folk’s experience. Chime
in here…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">Still
looking & voting for a water cooled slow rpm 10
KW………….<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #002060; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">----------------------------------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">Dana Orzel
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">Great Solar
Works, Inc - NABCEP # 051112-136<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">E -
dana@solarwork.com - Web - solarwork.com <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">O -
970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">"Responsible
Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: Webdings">P</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Please
consider the environment before printing this email.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Gary Willett<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, April 09, 2015 2:41
PM<BR><B>To:</B> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[RE-wrenches] Question on Back up generators<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Dana:<BR><BR>Take a look at the
new Generac EcoGen 15kW that was purpose built for a renewable energy system*
<BR><I><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">* including an inverter, battery bank and
alternative energy power source</SPAN></I><BR><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><A
href="http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf">http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/15kw-6103/0k8466-c-15kw-ecogen-hsb.pdf</A><BR></SPAN><BR>The
15kW EcoGen has the same footprint as the 6kW EcoGen (LP only) and is natural
gas or LP gas capable. The generator has a constant frequency / variable speed
AVR based on electrical demand. <BR><BR>Also, 500 run hours between oil
changes. And a 3-year or 2000 hour warranty.<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt"><A
href="http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf">http://gens.lccdn.com/generaccorporate/media/library/content/all-products/generators/home-generators/ecogen-series/ecogen-warranty-0j1629-revb.pdf</A></SPAN><BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR>Gary
Willett<BR>Icarus Engineering & Solar Services LLC<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On 4/9/15 9:56 AM, Dana wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">I agree but full load
charging usually only lasts but a few minutes as the inverter charge rate
drops readily as voltage rises. 8300 watt -10,000 watts or 13000 watts the
point is why we are installing air cooled throw away generators that run so
fast & hot that they need to be replaced in 2,000 hours, not to mention
the fuel consumed at 80 MPH?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Is there a slow speed
(1200-1800 rpm) water cooled 8-13 KW generator out
there?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt">----------------------------------------------------------------------------</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dana Orzel <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Great Solar Works, Inc - NABCEP #
051112-136<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>E - <A
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</A> - Web -
solarwork.com <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>O - 970.626.5253 C - 208.721.7003<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since
1988" <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: Webdings">P</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: green; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Please
consider the environment before printing this email.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Jerry Shafer
[<A
href="mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com">mailto:jerrysgarage01@gmail.com</A>]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, April 08, 2015 7:02 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</A>;
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] Question on Back up
generators</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>We don't install anything smaller then a 13 k its air
cooled but works well, as far as the numbers you have, Mine are somewhat
different I use max potential load and max potential charge as when the
batteries are low the genny must not only supply the home but also charge
the bank back up at a reasonable rate, so if the loads are high and the
genny only has enough to maintain that load then what about the batteries
plus I only use 75% of the genny rating for optimum or improved duty cycle.
This is only me and I am sure every shop has there own math.
<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Jerry <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Dana <<A
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com" target=_blank>dana@solarwork.com</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Hey All – </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">I just got off of a phone call with my Onan
generator supplier. Last conversation with Kohler was the same story
basically.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">I was informed that their smallest water cooled
generator, the RS22 (22 KW) is now no longer “rated “for off grid. They
actually called me to confirm that this generator was for backup power to a
utility inter connected house. Tier 4 generators in the EPA CFR 40 is the
Federal code what covers this, & you are allowed 100 hours of run time
for standby power and maintenance per year. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Q - Why am I using ridiculous sized generators for
something that an 82-8300 watt generator does just
fine?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">A - The EPA current requirements, a shrinking
economy, & manufacturers that have to meet very expensive air quality
compliance. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">The Penalty - If you get caught running a “standby
power only” generator the fine is now $39,000 per day!
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Now I am far from a polluting kind of individual and
all for air quality but this is getting the best of us. The 13KW air cooled
generators are only good for 2000 hours, & the water cooled go 20 years
of moderate usage but cost a boat load. I hate having the “Generator” talk
with a new client they look at me like I am crazy. So the air cooled units
are basically throwaways and the 22KW units are way more than we need and
what a client needs to spend money on, unless you are at 10,000 ft
el.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">If you figure 30 amps/120 VAC input per inverter +/-
x 2 = 7.2KW plus say 10-15% fudge or elevation factors would require an
8200-8300 watt generator. Air cooled at 3600 RPM = 80 MPH & 1800 RPM =
40 MPH. Even if the generator were a bit smaller, ran slow (1200-1800
rpm) and ran a bit longer that would be acceptable. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">So, why are we installing even 13KW air cooled or 22
KW water generators?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">There is a business opportunity here
folks.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">What are you all installing?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Why?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Is it reliable?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Would you use it on your
house?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
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