<font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I may sound like I'm a detractor against
using Lion, but that's not it.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">What I want to bring to light is that,
being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there
are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">From what I can gather the framework
for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation,
that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds
with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there
must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving
of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions
taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised
and in the most there is a thermal event or worse</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">There are some very robust Lion battery
packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well
Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company,
but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their
6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The
ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It
can be done.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">What I'm advocating is that its best
to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work
through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise
BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single
point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell
temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is
one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell......</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Here's a link to the Lion battery pack
manufacturer, Corvus,</font>
<br>
<br><a href="http://corvus-energy.com/"><font size=2 color=blue face="sans-serif">http://corvus-energy.com/</font></a>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I know they do a good job, but they're
not cheap,.... for now...</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">JARMO</font>
<br><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><b><br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size=1 color=#008000 face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size=1 face="Arial"><b> | Xantrex
Brand</b> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Sales Application
Engineer</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +604-422-2528 | <b>Tech Support:</b> 800-670-0707
| <b>Mobile:</b> +604-505-0291 <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href=http://www.xantrex.com/ target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>
www.Xantrex.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial"> |
<b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 <br>
</font>
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<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Larry <larry@starlightsolar.com></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>,
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/17/2015 02:37 PM</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium
battery bank</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></font></table>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>Hi Jarmo,<br>
<br>
One of the reasons I chose to sell and install GBS batteries is the chemistry
is safer, they have vent caps (like AGM) and they offer an integrated solution
where the battery, EMS/BMS and CPU are all designed specifically for each
other instead of adding various parts from different manufacturers. The
chemistry is LFMP (lithium iron manganese) not LFP. There are seven monitored
fault events, including temperature, current and voltage, that will disconnect
the battery from any load or any charge source. <br>
<br>
Since we are installing in RV's, there are multiple charge sources and
all must be controlled. The systems I design do this very well. Also, our
charge and discharge rates are far lower than the industry normally expects;
rarely reaching .5C. <br>
<br>
I have seen private videos of destructive testing of GBS cells. Steel rods
fired through entire packs; slow crush tests from top and sides, impact
tests, even cells blown away on a gun range (that was more for fun I think
as not too likely you will experience that). No fire, no thermal events.
Bottom line for me is these are likely the safest Lithium battery I can
offer. Many customers have already had shut down events because they were
not being responsible. A simple reset and they're back in business. <br>
<br>
What was the lithium chemistry that you had trouble with?<br>
</font>
<br><tt><font size=3>Thank you,<br>
<br>
Larry Crutcher<br>
</font></tt>
<br><font size=3>On 3/17/15 12:49 PM, </font><a href="mailto:Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font size=3 color=blue><u>Jarmo.Venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size=3>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi:</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on
the cell level.</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from various
suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other BMS circuits,
have already had two "thermal events".</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state of
charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be charged
and 140F is the max they can handle).</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or charge
quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range.</font><font size=3>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS doesn't
put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very quick slide
down the hill from there.</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
JARMO</font><font size=3 color=#008000><br>
_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><b><br>
<br>
Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size=1 color=#008000 face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size=1 face="Arial"><b> | Xantrex
Brand</b> | <b>CANADA</b> | <b>Sales Application
Engineer</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +604-422-2528 | <b>Tech Support:</b> 800-670-0707
| <b>Mobile:</b> +604-505-0291 <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com"><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href=http://www.xantrex.com/ target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Arial"><u>
www.Xantrex.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial"> |
<b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 </font>
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<tr valign=top>
<td width=13%><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td width=86%><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Larry </font><a href=mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u><larry@starlightsolar.com></u></font></a><font size=3>
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches </font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></u></font></a><font size=1 face="sans-serif">,
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/17/2015 11:41 AM</font><font size=3>
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery
bank</font><font size=3> </font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" </font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u><re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></u></font></a></table>
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