<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><p class="MsoNormal">Wrenches,</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Allan’s key technical question is “when should I hesitate to
replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit?” I’ve reviewed the various scenarios and
options with our engineers and tech support team, and the one “watch out” issue
that could potentially cause problems when replacing 120V legacy inverters with
120/240V replacements, is how the existing inverter bypass is configured. This is something that will need to be
addressed whether the old system was 120V only or 120/240V with multiple 120V
inverters.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">With a 120/240V inverter, the bypass must operate both L1
and L2 poles simultaneously. A common practice in the early days of solar
was to use a double pole and single pole breaker combo with a special wiring arrangement
and a mechanical interlock to bypass both input and output for each individual
phase. As you note these were typically
installed in a SqD QO403 3-pole load center, but I’ve also done a similar
arrangement in other enclosures which could fit QOU breakers. This worked well enough back when the Trace 120V
inverter was the defacto industry standard, as the two stacked inverters were
really operating as two independent units, 180 degrees out of phase. However, this type of bypass cannot and
should not be used with a 120/240V inverter.
If you find this type of bypass in the old system, plan on replacing it
with a modern equivalent as part of the upgrade. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Other issues relating to upgrading the system would be
constrained by site conditions and customer choice – ie, does the current
generator have split-phase output capability, is there an L2 conductor already in
the ground (or room in the conduit) for both the input from the generator and
output to the house, does the customer want to run higher power loads in the future,
perhaps run any water pumps at 240 instead of 120 and reduce the starting
surges and potential flicker. I can’t
think of a situation where a home wired for 120 can’t be fed with 120/240,
although the reverse is not always the case.
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">To answer the question regarding what is made where, the
vast majority of our products and inverter lines are manufactured in Bellingham,
Washington or in Suwanee Georgia (now Georgia might be a little foreign to
some, but last I looked it’s still part of the US-of-A). Every Radian inverter, G series inverter and Extreme
charge controller is made here in Washington State. We do have an international manufacturing
policy where it makes strategic sense – solar is booming in the developing
world, and some regions have local content provisions or taxation barriers that
require in-country manufacturing so there are a couple inverter lines such as
our VFX3024E for the Rest of World market which are made in India along with the
FM60 and FM80 charge controllers. However,
isn’t that what we want, US businesses succeeding in the global market and
bringing that business home? We don’t
have any manufacturing in China, nor is there any plan to do so – however, I’m
going to take a moment on a soapbox here related to China and solar. China’s citizens look to the West and want access
to a similar quality of life, and the more they burn dead dinos to get it the
more we are all screwed. IMHO one of the
best things that can happen for survivability on this planet is for China to
strongly embrace renewables. Global
solar market reports show massive deployment of PV throughout China and Asia at
all levels, and I’m OK with that. Bring
it on.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Ray, I’d like to work with you on internet discounters, it’s
not our intention to allow folks to undermine the market and devalue what
reputable installers such as yourself bring to the table. However, I have to push back on bashing our
technical support team. David, Katee, Jorge and the rest of the team work hard to provide trained and knowledgeable
support for all of our customers, not just the ones that belong to some kind of
loyalty club. The people answering the
phones here have experience on the manufacturing line, service depot or education
in Electrical Engineering, we’re proud to have a couple Veterans on the crew,
and everyone goes through both our CTP and SEI training classes. If a couple of hiring notices in the past
have caused you grief I apologize for that, but I challenge you to give our
team another chance.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailAutoSig">Peace,</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Phil<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Philip Undercuffler</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Director, Strategic Platforms</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> <br>
</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">OutBack
Power Technologies</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">17825 59<sup>th</sup> Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">360.618.4306 office | 425.319.2821</span><span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">mobile</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.outbackpower.com/"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">www.outbackpower.com</span></a><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(51,51,153)"></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 6:19 AM, Tump <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tump@swnl.net" target="_blank">tump@swnl.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Allan, are you planning on replacing the battery bank as well? If so SMA is always first choice, despite their price point. As with ANY inverter you will probably have an issue. As remote as site is, I always consider what manufacture really does compensate you and how quickly do they get you a replacement...... Hands down SMA. 120 SPh works with the old gen set, works well with the Trace DC250, (<font color="#e41610">and these expensive units don't adapt as well as replacements in older home systems</font>) NOT!, talks to Midnights CCs any 220 load is readily installed w/ a t former. No longer are the manus making boards readily available so no more field servicing.<br><div>If the battery bank is not to be replaced then the OBVFX product line, these units do not need additional software/computer/internet service to service unlike the some others.. .. "oh yeah you need to remove the 01-27 & replace it with the right file 01-277" sound familiar to any one else? </div><div>TIME VERSES LABOR your last sentence would be a wake up call all the $$$$$$$ you will need to upgrade this old system why would you use anything other then the SMA SI if you too are going to replace the batteries. </div><div><div>I also will do a bench test so I am not surprised with ANY remote install. Pain in the butt but certainly lot less problematic for you and your reputation.<br><div><span class=""><div>On Jan 30, 2015, at 8:02 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:</div><br></span><blockquote type="cite">
<div style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);color:rgb(0,0,0)" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="">
Esteemed Wrenches,<br>
This question is prompted by a specific customer's situation, and I
have a question related to this, but I'm mainly using the situation
to ask a broader question.<br>
<br>
The specific situation: A customer's Xantrex SW+2524 has been acting
erratically. Fixing the inverter is not the issue; the client is
quite remote, and costs of diagnosis, parts and labor for these
legacy units have gone up enough that the customer has already
decided to replace the unit with a current product. From my
perspective, the issues at hand revolve around how to safely and
cleanly install a modern inverter into a system structured around
old equipment. <br>
<br>
The specific question: Outback's FX series is the current product
that most readily replaces the SW/SW+ series: it's also 120V in/out,
and it has DC on the right and AC in/out on the left of a
horizontally-laid out unit. However, several times in recent years I
have heard disparaging comments, both here and in private
conversations, about the purported drop in quality of Outback's
inverters and controllers since Alpha bought them, but specifically
because units, or parts of units, are now made in China, rather than
in the U.S. What I want to know, please, are answers to two+
questions: 1) what's the real scoop? what is now made where? and 2)
what actual experiences, specifically product failures, have any of
you had that directly relate to changes directly attributable to
overseas production? In other words, how much of this is real and
how much is rumor?<br>
<br>
The bigger question (and this issue will come up frequently in the
coming years): the SW+, like the SW before it, operates at 120V AC
on both input and output. More and more modern battery-based
inverters input and output split-phase 120/240V AC. When should I
hesitate to replace a 120V legacy inverter with a 120/240V unit?<br>
<br></span>
Among larger whole-house single inverters, Outback's FX and VFX
units operate at 120V, but these are older models. SMA's Sunny
Island is 120V only, but this is generally considered a weakness in
typical SI installations, . Magnum's MS4024 is
available in either configuration. Outback's Radian and Schneider's
XW and Conext SW are only available as 120-240 units.<span class=""><br>
<br>
Here are the issues that I see: <br>
Don't do it if a backup generator is 120V AC-only. It will work, but
is hard on the inverters, as all charging current will come in on
one leg of the inverter's AC input. Fortunately, relatively few
generators are 120V-only; pretty much just the smaller
inverter-generators. Most cheaper gennies are 240V, and either run
through a step-down balancing transformer (which would be taken out
with the old 120V inverter) or run out of balance. Many better
portable generators have a 120/120-240 switch, making it necessary
to only replace a cable and plug to add a second hot conductor.<br>
<br>
Also, most older AC switchgear, such as QO403 inverter bypass
switches, are set up for single pole breakers, and would thus
require replacement, and reworking in general on the AC side to
handle two hot input and output conductors. <br>
<br>
But once the jumper between the two hot legs is removed in the AC
main panel, and two hots are connected, making the panel 120-240,
what are the concerns that I might not have anticipated? Are there
any hidden dangers, or situations where this change could cause
problems, especially in AC distribution? <br>
<br>
Thanks in advance. I hope that I don't regret posting this late on a
Friday...<br>
Allan<br>
<div>-- <br>
<div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com" target="_blank">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder (Retired), <span>Positive
Energy,
Inc.</span><br>
<b><a href="tel:505%20780-2738" value="+15057802738" target="_blank">505 780-2738</a> cell</b><br>
<br>
<b><u></u><u></u></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
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