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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
<br>
FWIW, remember also that if there is a Neutral connection on the
AC side that this line is grounded (usually) so<br>
there is also that ground connection.<br>
<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/5/2014 9:55 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CA+iiD9B9ARDQi1Q=dVhud03fpDuJZD8RwGbDJmNHaTHPjrq3Kw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Dana,
<div>If you bond the the ac and dc grounding systems using the
optional method outlined in 690.47(C)(3), then the AC EGC and
the DC GEC can be the same conductor (regardless of TL or
not). And this section of the Code specifically allows the DC
GEC to be sized per 250.122 for <u>ungrounded</u> systems
(and not larger than the ungrounded conductors). So in some
ways this is an end run around the GEC question. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, if the inverter manual says to follow 250.166
sizing requirements, then I'd think 110.3(B) is going to take
precedence for this installation and you don't have much
choice except to have a minimum 8AWG DC GEC conductor and
installed per 250.64 - but it could serve the purpose of the
AC EGC too. </div>
<div>Cheers, </div>
<div>Rebekah</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Dana
Brandt <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dana@ecotechenergy.com" target="_blank">dana@ecotechenergy.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Thanks for the reply and article, August.
John Wiles's article makes a clear statement that the GEC
is not required for TL inverters. I wish the code would
say it that clearly! I think I'm going to have a tough
time convincing inspectors the GEC isn't required with
such unclear language in the code. We'll see....<br>
<br>
Thanks again!<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><span class=""><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Dana<br>
<br>
Dana Brandt<br>
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ecotechenergy.com"
target="_blank">www.ecotechenergy.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dana@ecotechenergy.com"
target="_blank">dana@ecotechenergy.com</a><br>
360.318.7646</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at
12:45 PM, August Goers <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:august@luminalt.com"
target="_blank">august@luminalt.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Hi
Dana,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">This
is still a confusing issue, I agree.
This article helps a bit:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.nmsu.edu/%7Etdi/pdf-resources/IAEI%20Mar_Apr%202012.pdf"
target="_blank">http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/IAEI%20Mar_Apr%202012.pdf</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">If
you look in a SMA TL inverter
installation manual, for example, they
only mention equipment grounds – there
is no reference to a GEC that I can
find. The 2014 code doesn’t seem to have
clear wording on not requiring a GEC to
me but Rebekah’s recap below is spot on.
Luckily it is widely accepted in our
neck of the woods that TL inverters
don’t need GECs. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">I’m
not familiar with the Solectria TL
product. It sounds like it will be best
to call them if you need to install one
of their inverters. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">Best,
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a">August</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#44546a"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dana Brandt<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 03, 2014
12:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Code
reference request</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I
think I'm a bit confused on this
point. I can't seem to find the
code that specifically exempts
the GEC requirement for
inverters of ungrounded PV
systems. The only exception I
can find is only for AC PV
modules (2014 NEC 690.47 (C) ).
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I
just looked in the installation
manual for Solectria's new TL
inverters and found this:<br>
"Per NEC 690.47, a GEC must be
installed, and the Grounding
Electrode Terminal (GET) conductor
must be sized in accordance with
NEC article 250.166."</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">What am I
missing?<br>
<br>
Thanks,</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br
clear="all">
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dana<br>
<br>
Dana Brandt<br>
Ecotech Energy
Systems, LLC<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ecotechenergy.com" target="_blank">www.ecotechenergy.com</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dana@ecotechenergy.com" target="_blank">dana@ecotechenergy.com</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:360.318.7646" value="+13603187646" target="_blank">360.318.7646</a></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue,
Oct 28, 2014 at 11:30 AM,
Rebekah Hren <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:rebekah.hren@o2energies.com"
target="_blank">rebekah.hren@o2energies.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If
you are on 2014:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> 690.47(B) </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif"">An
ac equipment
grounding
system shall
be permitted </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif"">to
be used for
equipment
grounding of
inverters and
other </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif"">equipment
<b>and for the
ground-fault
detection
reference for
</b></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif"">ungrounded
PV systems.</span></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">and
690.47(C)(3) </p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif"">For
ungrounded
systems, this
conductor
shall be sized
in accordance
with 250.122 </span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif"">and
shall</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif"">not
be required to
be larger than
the largest
ungrounded </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Times","serif"">phase
conductor. </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Tue, Oct 28, 2014
at 2:22 PM, Gary
Willett <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Gary@icarussolarservices.com" target="_blank">Gary@icarussolarservices.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Kirk:<br>
<br>
A DC grounding
electrode
conductor (GEC) is
not required for
inverters that do
NOT have a ground
reference for the
PV+ and PV-
conductor(s) from
the PV array.<br>
<br>
A GEC is not
required if the
string inverter is
one of the new TL
(transformerless)
types. Also, this
applies to
micro-inverters
such as the new
Enphase M250 and
later versions of
the M215.<br>
<br>
Where this
applies, only a
properly sized
equipment
grounding
conductor (EGC) is
required.<br>
<br>
The EGC is sized
according to [NEC
690.45] and can be
a minimum of
#14AWG when not
exposed to damage,
or #6AWG when
exposed to
potential damage.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Gary Willett PE<br>
Icarus Engineering
LLC</p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
On 10/28/14,
12:53 PM, Kirk
wrote:</p>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi,<br>
I'm on a
jobsite
without my
code book.
Could someone
tell me where
in the code
ungrounded
systems do not
require the
inverter GEC?
Basically my
onsite
electrician
doesn't
believe me.
Thanks.<br>
<br>
Kirk Herander<br>
VSE<br>
_____________________</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#888888">--
</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="color:#888888">Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:336.266.8800"
target="_blank">336.266.8800</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
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Project Engineer<br>
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</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Tel: 336.266.8800<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://o2energies.com/"
target="_blank">http://o2energies.com/</a><br>
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<br>
This message, together with any attachments, is intended
only for the named recipient(s). It may contain
confidential or privileged information that may be exempt
from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the
intended recipient(s), you are notified that the disclosure,
dissemination, distribution, copying, storing, or other use
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<pre wrap="">_____
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</blockquote>
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