<font size=2 face="sans-serif">Hi:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I use a PDF writer to put in edit comments.
Here is an example I made out of a page in one of manuals,</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">JARMO<br>
</font><font size=3 color=#008000>_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size=3>
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Jarmo Venalainen</b> | </font><font size=1 color=#008000 face="Arial"><b>
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www.SEsolar.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Arial"> |
<b>Address:</b> 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 <br>
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<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"William Miller" <william@millersolar.com></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>,
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">11/05/2014 12:12 PM</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[RE-wrenches] Searchable, notable Code</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org></font></table>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial">Friends:</font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial">We have been seeing a lot of
good commentary here on code questions. I need to be able to access
these in the future at a time when I may not have thought about a specific
issue for some time and need to be able to get my head around a concept
in a hurry. Searching the Wrenches archives is not an efficient method.
I need the information right in my copy of the code, at the exact location
it applies.</font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial">My first electronic (PDF) version
of the code from NFPA came packaged in a product called “Folio Viewer.”
This was a great product that allowed advanced search functions and sophisticated
bookmarking. Unfortunately this program is no longer available, a
real shame.</font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial">We all have a need to markup
our own versions of the code. Currently I “break” the electronic
protection of the PDF version using an on-line service (</font><a href=http://online2pdf.com/><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial">http://online2pdf.com/</font></a><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial">).
I can then create my own bookmarks, margin notes and links. I add
comments like those below using the ‘sticky notes’ function of Acrobat
Pro and bookmark oft-used passages. I also create links to cited
sections, making it easier to navigate.</font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial">Does anyone else have suggestions
as to how to retain notes and pertinent comments within the code?</font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial">William</font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><img src=cid:_2_0C64A4500C6CB28400721A8088257D87 alt="Gradient Cap_mini"><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Lic 773985</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=http://www.millersolar.com/><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><u>millersolar.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
805-438-5600</font>
<br><font size=3 color=#004080 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> RE-wrenches [</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font size=2 face="Tahoma">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Rebekah Hren<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 05, 2014 9:55 AM<b><br>
To:</b> RE-wrenches<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Code reference request</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Hi Dana, </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">If you bond the the ac and dc grounding
systems using the optional method outlined in 690.47(C)(3), then the AC
EGC and the DC GEC can be the same conductor (regardless of TL or not).
And this section of the Code specifically allows the DC GEC to be
sized per 250.122 for <u>ungrounded</u> systems (and not larger than the
ungrounded conductors). So in some ways this is an end run around the GEC
question. </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">However, if the inverter manual
says to follow 250.166 sizing requirements, then I'd think 110.3(B) is
going to take precedence for this installation and you don't have much
choice except to have a minimum 8AWG DC GEC conductor and installed per
250.64 - but it could serve the purpose of the AC EGC too. </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Cheers, </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Rebekah</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 12:39 PM,
Dana Brandt <</font><a href=mailto:dana@ecotechenergy.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>dana@ecotechenergy.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Thanks for the reply and article,
August. John Wiles's article makes a clear statement that the GEC is not
required for TL inverters. I wish the code would say it that clearly! I
think I'm going to have a tough time convincing inspectors the GEC isn't
required with such unclear language in the code. We'll see....<br>
<br>
Thanks again!</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Dana<br>
<br>
Dana Brandt<br>
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC</font><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=http://www.ecotechenergy.com/ target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>www.ecotechenergy.com</u></font></a><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=mailto:dana@ecotechenergy.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>dana@ecotechenergy.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
360.318.7646</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 12:45 PM,
August Goers <</font><a href=mailto:august@luminalt.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>august@luminalt.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">Hi Dana,</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">This is still a confusing
issue, I agree. This article helps a bit:</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><a href="http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/IAEI%20Mar_Apr%202012.pdf" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Calibri"><u>http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/IAEI%20Mar_Apr%202012.pdf</u></font></a>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">If you look in a SMA TL inverter
installation manual, for example, they only mention equipment grounds –
there is no reference to a GEC that I can find. The 2014 code doesn’t
seem to have clear wording on not requiring a GEC to me but Rebekah’s
recap below is spot on. Luckily it is widely accepted in our neck of the
woods that TL inverters don’t need GECs. </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">I’m not familiar with the
Solectria TL product. It sounds like it will be best to call them if you
need to install one of their inverters. </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">Best, </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri">August</font>
<br><font size=2 color=#37605e face="Calibri"> </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> RE-wrenches [mailto:</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dana Brandt<b><br>
Sent:</b> Monday, November 03, 2014 12:06 PM<b><br>
To:</b> RE-wrenches<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Code reference request</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">I think I'm a bit confused on this
point. I can't seem to find the code that specifically exempts the GEC
requirement for inverters of ungrounded PV systems. The only exception
I can find is only for AC PV modules (2014 NEC 690.47 (C) ). </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">I just looked in the installation
manual for Solectria's new TL inverters and found this:<br>
"Per NEC 690.47, a GEC must be installed, and the Grounding Electrode
Terminal (GET) conductor must be sized in accordance with NEC article 250.166."</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">What am I missing?<br>
<br>
Thanks,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Dana<br>
<br>
Dana Brandt<br>
Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC</font><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=http://www.ecotechenergy.com/ target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>www.ecotechenergy.com</u></font></a><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=mailto:dana@ecotechenergy.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>dana@ecotechenergy.com</u></font></a><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a href=tel:360.318.7646 target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>360.318.7646</u></font></a>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 11:30 AM,
Rebekah Hren <</font><a href=mailto:rebekah.hren@o2energies.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>rebekah.hren@o2energies.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">If you are on 2014:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> 690.47(B) </font>
<p><font size=2>An ac equipment grounding system shall be permitted </font>
<p><font size=2>to be used for equipment grounding of inverters and other
</font>
<p><font size=2>equipment <b>and for the ground-fault detection reference
for </b></font>
<br><font size=2><b>ungrounded PV systems.</b></font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">and 690.47(C)(3) </font>
<p><font size=2><b>For ungrounded systems, this conductor shall be sized
in accordance with 250.122 </b>and shall</font>
<p><font size=2>not be required to be larger than the largest ungrounded
</font>
<p><font size=2>phase conductor. </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 2:22 PM,
Gary Willett <</font><a href=mailto:Gary@icarussolarservices.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>Gary@icarussolarservices.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Kirk:<br>
<br>
A DC grounding electrode conductor (GEC) is not required for inverters
that do NOT have a ground reference for the PV+ and PV- conductor(s) from
the PV array.<br>
<br>
A GEC is not required if the string inverter is one of the new TL (transformerless)
types. Also, this applies to micro-inverters such as the new Enphase
M250 and later versions of the M215.<br>
<br>
Where this applies, only a properly sized equipment grounding conductor
(EGC) is required.<br>
<br>
The EGC is sized according to [NEC 690.45] and can be a minimum of #14AWG
when not exposed to damage, or #6AWG when exposed to potential damage.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Gary Willett PE<br>
Icarus Engineering LLC</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
On 10/28/14, 12:53 PM, Kirk wrote:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Hi,<br>
I'm on a jobsite without my code book. Could someone tell me where in the
code ungrounded systems do not require the inverter GEC? Basically my onsite
electrician doesn't believe me. Thanks.<br>
<br>
Kirk Herander<br>
VSE<br>
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