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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sorry, these are also called “</span><span lang=EN style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>air admittance valves.” And you could flash over the hole in the roof and install the system over it. I’ve done a lot of plumbing but that doesn’t make me a plumber. Check with a real one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bill Dorsett<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sunwrights<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Manhattan, KS</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Benn Kilburn<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 25, 2014 7:40 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>I'll echo what Matt suggests about not relying on an inspector (electrical or plumbing) to "catch" this. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>That doesn't make it a best practice and just because you can get away with it then you should be doing it. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>Do your due diligence and find out what the Plumbing Code in your area requires AND run the idea/concept by an inspector (plumbing). <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>And again, just because the plumbing code may allow it, technically, it still doesn't make it a best practice method.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>I had a plumbing inspector get back to me today and he cited a plumbing code 2.5.6.5 Article 5 (Alberta Plumbing Code, I assume), which basically says the sewer vent must be high enough to prevent any run-off from entering the vent <u>however it cannot be less than 150mm (6 inches)</u>.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>This means we could not install mods over a sewer vent using our typical racking system (on asphalt shingles) which only gets the back of the module 4 to maybe 4-1/2" off the roof. And if we did install a taller L-foot or stand-off that would give us say an inch or even 3 inches of clearance, then you have the potential issue of condensation freezing and building up on the back of the module in the winter and potentially blocking the vent altogether.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>That might not be a concern if you are in a warmer climate, but here in Alberta and i'm sure much of the US, it is very possible that this could happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>Regardless, i'm pleased to have found out the minimum height required for these vents as i will be looking to trim down any taller ones that will cause some shading. Always looking to maximize system performance, a few inches (several in some cases) trimmed off the height of a vent will be just that much less shading and increased system output. I can't imagine it would be too much, but....<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Trebuchet MS","sans-serif"'>Benn<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Matt Partymiller <<a href="mailto:matt@solar-energy-solutions.com" target="_blank">matt@solar-energy-solutions.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Carl,<br><br>In our shared region plumbing code requires vents be 12" above roof line.<br>Electrical inspectors probably won't catch this, plumbing inspectors<br>probably won't get on a roof, but still there is a code concern. You<br>might exercise some caution.<br><br>Matt<br><br><br>Matthew Partymiller<br>Solar Energy Solutions LLC<br><a href="tel:%28877%29%20312-7456">(877) 312-7456</a><br><a href="mailto:matt@solar-energy-solutions.com">matt@solar-energy-solutions.com</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br>On Wed, September 24, 2014 6:49 pm, Carl Adams wrote:<br>> Bruce,<br>> We routinely cut off DWV as suggested by earlier posts so that they are at<br>> least 1 inch below the surface of the back of the module.<br>><br>> To be clear these are sewage intake air vents and not exhaust vents for<br>> heating appliances.<br>><br>> We do place a quarter inch wire cloth over the cut off vent and apply a<br>> four inch stainless steel hose clamp around the pipe just to prevent<br>> foreign objects from entering the vent pipe.<br>><br>> I have never had an inspector question this method.<br>><br>><br>> With Regards<br>> Carl Adams, President<br>> SunRock Solar<br>> <a href="tel:513.290.9072">513.290.9072</a> (cell)<br>> <a href="tel:513.766.6025">513.766.6025</a> (office)<br>><br>><br>> On Sep 24, 2014, at 1:37 PM, Ray Walters <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>> wrote:<br>><br>><br>> I agree with Kurt: you need a licensed plumber in your area to<br>> advise you, if you're trying to keep the AHJs happy . 2nd, I'm very sure<br>> you don't want an exhaust/ combustion type vent under the array. I've<br>> had several over the years, and seen some arrays installed over them.<br>> They can get fairly hot and put quite a bit of steam out. I would not<br>> trust the module backing material to a concentrated long term dose; which<br>> module is going to have a problem first? R.Ray Walters<br>> CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>> Licensed Master Electrician<br>> Solar Design Engineer<br>> <a href="tel:303%20505-8760">303 505-8760</a><br>> On 9/24/2014 11:16 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote:<br>><br>>> Should you decide to lower your plumbing vents I have found an inside<br>>> pipe cutter to be an inexpensive and handy tool. Cut the vent and lead<br>>> off an inch above your desired pipe height and use the inside cutter to<br>>> cut the pvc pipe. Go slow and be careful to keep air space between the<br>>> pvc and lead as the lead will cut very easily.<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> Also I wouldn't rely on us well intentioned wrenches to make the call<br>>> on the plumbing code in your jurisdiction. Though the state plumbing<br>>> codes are usually based on the international code, there will be<br>>> differences. If you can't pull up your state plumbing code online then<br>>> ask your plumbing inspector. In Florida the minimum height above a roof<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal>>> surface is 6" (904.1). As for relocating 905.2 states that “all vent<br>>> and branch vent pipes shall be so graded and connected as to drain back<br>>> to the drainage pipe by gravity†. Table 710.1(1) shows that for<br>>> 1.5†pipe a slope of ¼†per foot is sufficient to handle 3<br>>> fixtures. I would take that to indicate ¼†/ foot is plenty for a<br>>> 1.5†vent.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>>><br>>><br>>><br>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Dave Click <<a href="mailto:daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu">daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu</a>><br>>>> wrote:<br>>>> Flipping through the '04 plumbing code I see a few slopes called out<br>>>> (1/4" per 1' for fixture vents, 1" per 1' for circuit vents, 1/2" per<br>>>> 1' for combination drain/vent...). Fixture vents have a maximum<br>>>> distance of a few feet from fixture trap to vent, but I don't think<br>>>> this prevents you from then running that vent horizontally. 916.2<br>>>> states that for vents other than stack vents or vent stacks if your<br>>>> vent is >40' you need to upsize the whole vent pipe (tough to do for<br>>>> an existing building, of course). Stack vents have a "maximum<br>>>> developed length" of 100' for a 1.5" vent which should be enough<br>>>> space to get away from under the PV. I don't see any slope<br>>>> requirements specifically for stack vents but my non-plumber's eye<br>>>> may be missing something.<br>>>><br>>>> The stack vent sizing Table 916.1 appears (in part) here too and it<br>>>> looks like the tables match up to a 2.5":<br>>>> <a href="http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/drainage-vents-d_1110.html" target="_blank">http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/drainage-vents-d_1110.html</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> DKC<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> On 2014/9/24 10:19, Jason Szumlanski wrote:<br>>>><br>>>>> I am unable to find anything in the Florida code that precludes<br>>>>> covering a plumbing vent. The code does require the vent to be 6"<br>>>>> above the roof surface I believe.<br>>>>><br>>>>> I was unable to determine if these vents need to be vertical with<br>>>>> no bends in the attic. Obviously you wouldn't want to create a trap<br>>>>> in the attic, but a couple of 45's to relocate a plumbing vent to<br>>>>> accommodate more PV seems like a desirable thing to do sometimes.<br>>>>> Does anyone know if these can be relocated, i.e. to an adjacent<br>>>>> roof surface?<br>>>>><br>>>>> On my own home I had a vent to deal with. I broke out my saws-all,<br>>>>> split the lead like a banana and peeled it back, cut the pipe at an<br>>>>> angle, and folded the lead back into the pipe after applying<br>>>>> sealant between the lead and pipe. There is a 1" gap between the<br>>>>> rim of the pipe and the back of the module. My theory on this<br>>>>> working safely is that, a) there will be far less rainwater falling<br>>>>> in and around this pipe with a module over it, and b) it is about<br>>>>> 24" from the roof ridge and there is a module over it so there will<br>>>>> be very little water sheeting down from<br>>>>> above the vent. Code notwithstanding, I felt this was a solid<br>>>>> method on my own home, and I have inspected it after 6 months of<br>>>>> Florida downpours and found no issues.<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> Jason Szumlanski<br>>>>> Fafco Solar<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 6:38 AM, Bill Loesch<br>>>>> <<a href="mailto:solar1online@charter.net">solar1online@charter.net</a>> wrote:<br>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>> Bruce, August, et al,<br>>>>>><br>>>>>><br>>>>>> This is but one more example of confusing terminology. A plumbing<br>>>>>> vent is not an exhaust vent!<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> A plumbing vent (what August calls a cold vent) is provided to<br>>>>>> allow the sanitary drain traps (and perhaps more) to operate<br>>>>>> properly. Without the properly functioning traps you would have<br>>>>>> sewer gas smell and sewer gas from the plumbing fixtures. This<br>>>>>> was commonplace when indoor plumbing was introduced to early<br>>>>>> adopters.<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> An exhaust vent is another animal entirely. An exhaust vent<br>>>>>> carries the combustion products to a suitable exterior location<br>>>>>> for dilution with ambient air. With the advent of power vented<br>>>>>> combustion appliances, a direct vent (one that takes in<br>>>>>> combustion air from the outside and naturally exhausts combustion<br>>>>>> products to the outside) is IMHO the only responsible way to<br>>>>>> install any power vented appliance in a freezing climate. (Power<br>>>>>> vented appliances come in both condensing and non-condensing<br>>>>>> flavors-they can penetrate the side wall or the roof).<br>>>>>> Originally, two separate pipes (with two independent properly<br>>>>>> separated penetrations) was used. That technique is still often<br>>>>>> used today. More recently concentric vents have been introduced<br>>>>>> both for condensing and non-condensing applications. A concentric<br>>>>>> vent can simplify some installations by putting the exhaust pipe<br>>>>>> inside a larger air intake pipe allowing for one, albeit larger,<br>>>>>> penetration. As you might imagine if the exhaust flow is<br>>>>>> hindered/diverted/redirected by an inappropriately located solar<br>>>>>> module combustion gasses will be re-ingested into the intake air.<br>>>>>> Not good for equipment performance. My understanding is the power<br>>>>>> vented appliance manufacturer dictates what kind of<br>>>>>> separation/clearances are needed with their product. My guess is<br>>>>>> you find they want at least a foot of separation between the top<br>>>>>> of the " inverted cone" and the module. Probably not what you had<br>>>>>> in mind for an aesthetically pleasing installation.<br>>>>>><br>>>>>> I hope this helps,<br>>>>>> Bill Loesch<br>>>>>> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar<br>>>>>> <a href="tel:314%20631%201094">314 631 1094</a><br>>>>>> On 23-Sep-14 6:54 PM, August<br>>>>>> Goers wrote:<br>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Bruce and All,<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Sorry, I hit send before I had a chance to complete my<br>>>>>>> thoughts. What I meant to say was that I've found AHJs often<br>>>>>>> allow us to cover cold plumbing vents but I've never tried or<br>>>>>>> had any luck with covering hot vents including condensing boiler<br>>>>>>> PVC vents. Once again, if in doubt you<br>>>>>>> could see what the plan checker or inspector thinks.<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Best,<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> August<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>>>>>> From: August Goers [mailto:<a href="mailto:august@luminalt.com">august@luminalt.com</a>]<br>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:15 PM<br>>>>>>> To: 'RE-wrenches'<br>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Bruce,<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> I'll send you the CA plumbing code vent section offlist<br>>>>>>> (attachment too<br>>>>>>> large for this list). The way I read the code is that you<br>>>>>>> technically can't cover any type of plumbing or hot vent.<br>>>>>>> However, and I've run into<br>>>>>>> little resistance from AHJs in the Bay Area by covering these.<br>>>>>>> You might<br>>>>>>> want to check in with your plan checker.<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Best,<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> August<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Luminalt<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>>>>>> From: RE-wrenches<br>>>>>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On<br>>>>>>> Behalf Of Bruce Leininger<br>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 3:49 PM<br>>>>>>> To: RE-wrenches<br>>>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Hi all. We're designing a system on a roof that is literally<br>>>>>>> infested with plumbing, exhaust and combustion vents. The<br>>>>>>> combustion vents are PVC and none of the vents are more than<br>>>>>>> 1.5' above the roof.<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> A racking company says that we can cover them with modules,<br>>>>>>> since the modules will be at least 4' above the roof. They have<br>>>>>>> not yet provided any building code references to say that this<br>>>>>>> is ok. Do any of you know if the building code allows this?<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Thanks.<br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>><br>>>>>>> Bruce<br>>>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:<br>>>>> <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>>>>><br>>>>><br>>>>> List-Archive:<br>>>>> <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maill" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maill</a><br>>>>> ist.html<br>>>>><br>>>>> List rules & etiquette:<br>>>>> <a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>>>>><br>>>>> Check out or update participant bios:<br>>>>> <a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> _______________________________________________<br>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance<br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:<br>>>> <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>>>><br>>>><br>>>> List-Archive:<br>>>> <a href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillis</a><br>>>> t.html<br>>>><br>>>> List rules & etiquette:<br>>>> <a 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