<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">I'll echo what Matt suggests about not relying on an inspector (electrical or plumbing) to "catch" this. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">That doesn't make it a best practice and just because you can get away with it then you should be doing it. </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Do your due diligence and find out what the Plumbing Code in your area requires AND run the idea/concept by an inspector (plumbing). </div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">And again, just because the plumbing code may allow it, technically, it still doesn't make it a best practice method.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">I had a plumbing inspector get back to me today and he cited a plumbing code 2.5.6.5 Article 5 (Alberta Plumbing Code, I assume), which basically says the sewer vent must be high enough to prevent any run-off from entering the vent <u>however it cannot be less than 150mm (6 inches)</u>.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">This means we could not install mods over a sewer vent using our typical racking system (on asphalt shingles) which only gets the back of the module 4 to maybe 4-1/2" off the roof. And if we did install a taller L-foot or stand-off that would give us say an inch or even 3 inches of clearance, then you have the potential issue of condensation freezing and building up on the back of the module in the winter and potentially blocking the vent altogether.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">That might not be a concern if you are in a warmer climate, but here in Alberta and i'm sure much of the US, it is very possible that this could happen.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Regardless, i'm pleased to have found out the minimum height required for these vents as i will be looking to trim down any taller ones that will cause some shading. Always looking to maximize system performance, a few inches (several in some cases) trimmed off the height of a vent will be just that much less shading and increased system output. I can't imagine it would be too much, but....</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Cheers,</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif">Benn</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Matt Partymiller <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:matt@solar-energy-solutions.com" target="_blank">matt@solar-energy-solutions.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Carl,<br>
<br>
In our shared region plumbing code requires vents be 12" above roof line.<br>
Electrical inspectors probably won't catch this, plumbing inspectors<br>
probably won't get on a roof, but still there is a code concern. You<br>
might exercise some caution.<br>
<br>
Matt<br>
<br>
<br>
Matthew Partymiller<br>
Solar Energy Solutions LLC<br>
<a href="tel:%28877%29%20312-7456" value="+18773127456">(877) 312-7456</a><br>
<a href="mailto:matt@solar-energy-solutions.com">matt@solar-energy-solutions.com</a><br>
<div><div class="h5"><br>
On Wed, September 24, 2014 6:49 pm, Carl Adams wrote:<br>
> Bruce,<br>
> We routinely cut off DWV as suggested by earlier posts so that they are at<br>
> least 1 inch below the surface of the back of the module.<br>
><br>
> To be clear these are sewage intake air vents and not exhaust vents for<br>
> heating appliances.<br>
><br>
> We do place a quarter inch wire cloth over the cut off vent and apply a<br>
> four inch stainless steel hose clamp around the pipe just to prevent<br>
> foreign objects from entering the vent pipe.<br>
><br>
> I have never had an inspector question this method.<br>
><br>
><br>
> With Regards<br>
> Carl Adams, President<br>
> SunRock Solar<br>
> <a href="tel:513.290.9072" value="+15132909072">513.290.9072</a> (cell)<br>
> <a href="tel:513.766.6025" value="+15137666025">513.766.6025</a> (office)<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Sep 24, 2014, at 1:37 PM, Ray Walters <<a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> I agree with Kurt: you need a licensed plumber in your area to<br>
> advise you, if you're trying to keep the AHJs happy . 2nd, I'm very sure<br>
> you don't want an exhaust/ combustion type vent under the array. I've<br>
> had several over the years, and seen some arrays installed over them.<br>
> They can get fairly hot and put quite a bit of steam out. I would not<br>
> trust the module backing material to a concentrated long term dose; which<br>
> module is going to have a problem first? R.Ray Walters<br>
> CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
> Licensed Master Electrician<br>
> Solar Design Engineer<br>
> <a href="tel:303%20505-8760" value="+13035058760">303 505-8760</a><br>
> On 9/24/2014 11:16 AM, Kurt Johnsen wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Should you decide to lower your plumbing vents I have found an inside<br>
>> pipe cutter to be an inexpensive and handy tool. Cut the vent and lead<br>
>> off an inch above your desired pipe height and use the inside cutter to<br>
>> cut the pvc pipe. Go slow and be careful to keep air space between the<br>
>> pvc and lead as the lead will cut very easily.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Also I wouldn't rely on us well intentioned wrenches to make the call<br>
>> on the plumbing code in your jurisdiction. Though the state plumbing<br>
>> codes are usually based on the international code, there will be<br>
>> differences. If you can't pull up your state plumbing code online then<br>
>> ask your plumbing inspector. In Florida the minimum height above a roof<br>
</div></div>>> surface is 6" (904.1). As for relocating 905.2 states that “all vent<br>
<span class="">>> and branch vent pipes shall be so graded and connected as to drain back<br>
</span>>> to the drainage pipe by gravity†. Table 710.1(1) shows that for<br>
>> 1.5†pipe a slope of ¼†per foot is sufficient to handle 3<br>
>> fixtures. I would take that to indicate ¼†/ foot is plenty for a<br>
>> 1.5†vent.<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Dave Click <<a href="mailto:daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu">daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>> Flipping through the '04 plumbing code I see a few slopes called out<br>
>>> (1/4" per 1' for fixture vents, 1" per 1' for circuit vents, 1/2" per<br>
>>> 1' for combination drain/vent...). Fixture vents have a maximum<br>
>>> distance of a few feet from fixture trap to vent, but I don't think<br>
>>> this prevents you from then running that vent horizontally. 916.2<br>
>>> states that for vents other than stack vents or vent stacks if your<br>
>>> vent is >40' you need to upsize the whole vent pipe (tough to do for<br>
>>> an existing building, of course). Stack vents have a "maximum<br>
>>> developed length" of 100' for a 1.5" vent which should be enough<br>
>>> space to get away from under the PV. I don't see any slope<br>
>>> requirements specifically for stack vents but my non-plumber's eye<br>
>>> may be missing something.<br>
>>><br>
>>> The stack vent sizing Table 916.1 appears (in part) here too and it<br>
>>> looks like the tables match up to a 2.5":<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/drainage-vents-d_1110.html" target="_blank">http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/drainage-vents-d_1110.html</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> DKC<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On 2014/9/24 10:19, Jason Szumlanski wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> I am unable to find anything in the Florida code that precludes<br>
>>>> covering a plumbing vent. The code does require the vent to be 6"<br>
>>>> above the roof surface I believe.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I was unable to determine if these vents need to be vertical with<br>
>>>> no bends in the attic. Obviously you wouldn't want to create a trap<br>
>>>> in the attic, but a couple of 45's to relocate a plumbing vent to<br>
>>>> accommodate more PV seems like a desirable thing to do sometimes.<br>
>>>> Does anyone know if these can be relocated, i.e. to an adjacent<br>
>>>> roof surface?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On my own home I had a vent to deal with. I broke out my saws-all,<br>
>>>> split the lead like a banana and peeled it back, cut the pipe at an<br>
>>>> angle, and folded the lead back into the pipe after applying<br>
>>>> sealant between the lead and pipe. There is a 1" gap between the<br>
>>>> rim of the pipe and the back of the module. My theory on this<br>
>>>> working safely is that, a) there will be far less rainwater falling<br>
>>>> in and around this pipe with a module over it, and b) it is about<br>
>>>> 24" from the roof ridge and there is a module over it so there will<br>
>>>> be very little water sheeting down from<br>
>>>> above the vent. Code notwithstanding, I felt this was a solid<br>
>>>> method on my own home, and I have inspected it after 6 months of<br>
>>>> Florida downpours and found no issues.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Jason Szumlanski<br>
>>>> Fafco Solar<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
</div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">>>>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 6:38 AM, Bill Loesch<br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:solar1online@charter.net">solar1online@charter.net</a>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Bruce, August, et al,<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> This is but one more example of confusing terminology. A plumbing<br>
>>>>> vent is not an exhaust vent!<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> A plumbing vent (what August calls a cold vent) is provided to<br>
>>>>> allow the sanitary drain traps (and perhaps more) to operate<br>
>>>>> properly. Without the properly functioning traps you would have<br>
>>>>> sewer gas smell and sewer gas from the plumbing fixtures. This<br>
>>>>> was commonplace when indoor plumbing was introduced to early<br>
>>>>> adopters.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> An exhaust vent is another animal entirely. An exhaust vent<br>
>>>>> carries the combustion products to a suitable exterior location<br>
>>>>> for dilution with ambient air. With the advent of power vented<br>
>>>>> combustion appliances, a direct vent (one that takes in<br>
>>>>> combustion air from the outside and naturally exhausts combustion<br>
>>>>> products to the outside) is IMHO the only responsible way to<br>
>>>>> install any power vented appliance in a freezing climate. (Power<br>
>>>>> vented appliances come in both condensing and non-condensing<br>
>>>>> flavors-they can penetrate the side wall or the roof).<br>
>>>>> Originally, two separate pipes (with two independent properly<br>
>>>>> separated penetrations) was used. That technique is still often<br>
>>>>> used today. More recently concentric vents have been introduced<br>
>>>>> both for condensing and non-condensing applications. A concentric<br>
>>>>> vent can simplify some installations by putting the exhaust pipe<br>
>>>>> inside a larger air intake pipe allowing for one, albeit larger,<br>
>>>>> penetration. As you might imagine if the exhaust flow is<br>
>>>>> hindered/diverted/redirected by an inappropriately located solar<br>
>>>>> module combustion gasses will be re-ingested into the intake air.<br>
>>>>> Not good for equipment performance. My understanding is the power<br>
>>>>> vented appliance manufacturer dictates what kind of<br>
>>>>> separation/clearances are needed with their product. My guess is<br>
>>>>> you find they want at least a foot of separation between the top<br>
>>>>> of the " inverted cone" and the module. Probably not what you had<br>
>>>>> in mind for an aesthetically pleasing installation.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> I hope this helps,<br>
>>>>> Bill Loesch<br>
>>>>> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar<br>
>>>>> <a href="tel:314%20631%201094" value="+13146311094">314 631 1094</a><br>
>>>>> On 23-Sep-14 6:54 PM, August<br>
>>>>> Goers wrote:<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Bruce and All,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Sorry, I hit send before I had a chance to complete my<br>
>>>>>> thoughts. What I meant to say was that I've found AHJs often<br>
>>>>>> allow us to cover cold plumbing vents but I've never tried or<br>
>>>>>> had any luck with covering hot vents including condensing boiler<br>
>>>>>> PVC vents. Once again, if in doubt you<br>
>>>>>> could see what the plan checker or inspector thinks.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Best,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> August<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>>>>>> From: August Goers [mailto:<a href="mailto:august@luminalt.com">august@luminalt.com</a>]<br>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:15 PM<br>
>>>>>> To: 'RE-wrenches'<br>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Bruce,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> I'll send you the CA plumbing code vent section offlist<br>
>>>>>> (attachment too<br>
>>>>>> large for this list). The way I read the code is that you<br>
>>>>>> technically can't cover any type of plumbing or hot vent.<br>
>>>>>> However, and I've run into<br>
>>>>>> little resistance from AHJs in the Bay Area by covering these.<br>
>>>>>> You might<br>
>>>>>> want to check in with your plan checker.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Best,<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> August<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Luminalt<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>>>>>> From: RE-wrenches<br>
>>>>>> [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On<br>
>>>>>> Behalf Of Bruce Leininger<br>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 3:49 PM<br>
>>>>>> To: RE-wrenches<br>
>>>>>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Hi all. We're designing a system on a roof that is literally<br>
>>>>>> infested with plumbing, exhaust and combustion vents. The<br>
>>>>>> combustion vents are PVC and none of the vents are more than<br>
>>>>>> 1.5' above the roof.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> A racking company says that we can cover them with modules,<br>
>>>>>> since the modules will be at least 4' above the roof. They have<br>
>>>>>> not yet provided any building code references to say that this<br>
>>>>>> is ok. Do any of you know if the building code allows this?<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Thanks.<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>>>> Bruce<br>
>>>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><p style="font-size:13px;margin:0px;padding:1em 0px;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">
<strong style="margin:0px;padding:0px">Benn Kilburn <span style="font-size:9px"></span></strong><br style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc<br style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7<br style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | <a href="http://www.skyfireenergy.com/" style="margin:0px;padding:0px;color:rgb(240,140,0);text-decoration:none;border-width:0px;border-style:none" target="_blank">www.skyfireenergy.com</a><br style="margin:0px;padding:0px">
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