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<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I don't have that
reference, but I believe that IFC 608 only comes into play with
large banks with 50+ gallons of electrolyte. <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014/7/29, 14:10, Glenn Burt wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also
look to see if the fire code in your state has additional
restrictions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
New York Stat, the 2010 Fire Code contains a section (608)
with more regulations to be heeded when installing
‘stationary storage batteries’.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-Glenn<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Drake<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 29, 2014 12:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in a
dwelling - Venting Concorde AGMs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">This is a reply to a post by Alan from June
21st. I'm replying because I've had to deal with this issue
also. It seems to me that the 2014 NEC Handbook is <u>fairly</u>
clear that we are not required to vent any batteries to the
outside. <br>
<br>
<b>"480.9 Battery Locations<br>
</b>Battery locations shall conform to 480.9(A), (B), and (C).<br>
<b>(A) Ventilation. </b>Provisions appropriate to the battery
technology<br>
shall be made for sufficient diffusion and ventilation of
gases<br>
from the battery, if present, to prevent the accumulation of
an<br>
explosive mixture.<br>
Ventilation is necessary to prevent classification of a
battery location<br>
as a hazardous (classified) location, in accordance with<br>
Article 500.<br>
Mechanical ventilation is not mandated. Hydrogen disperses<br>
rapidly and requires little air movement to prevent
accumulation.<br>
Unrestricted natural air movement in the vicinity of the
battery,<br>
together with normal air changes for occupied spaces or heat<br>
removal, normally is sufficient. If the space is confined,
mechanical<br>
ventilation may be required in the vicinity of the battery.<br>
Hydrogen is lighter than air and tends to concentrate at
ceiling<br>
level, so some form of ventilation should be provided at the<br>
upper portion of the structure. Ventilation can be a fan, roof
ridge<br>
vent, or louvered area.<br>
Although valve-regulated batteries are often referred to as<br>
“sealed,” they actually emit very small quantities of hydrogen
gas<br>
under normal operation and are capable of liberating large
quantities<br>
of explosive gases if overcharged. These batteries therefore<br>
require the same amount of ventilation as their vented<br>
counterparts."<br>
<br>
I think that the confusion come is with the statement "These
batteries therefore<br>
require the same amount of ventilation as their vented<br>
counterparts." <br>
<br>
As we see from the statement "Unrestricted natural air
movement in the vicinity of the battery,<br>
together with normal air changes for occupied spaces or heat<br>
removal, normally is sufficient," the concern is with
explosive gasses being restricted to a small area, where
explosive concentrations of hydrogen can build up.<br>
<br>
The article also has the statement "Provisions appropriate to
the <u>battery technology</u>" which should be taken into
account. In practice, liquid electrolyte batteries stink and
emit toxic fumes, so we do vent these outside. <br>
<br>
It does sound like different voices have worked their way into
this code section, which can open the way to various
interpretations. But, if you look at the photos in the NEC
Handbook of batteries, they are on unenclosed racks inside of
a building. <br>
<br>
Drake <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 12:06 AM 6/22/2014, you wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bob,<br>
We had a case in February in which an AHJ insisted that we
vent a Midnite cabinet with a dozen 2V 9150T batteries. We
fought it all the way to the state Technical Advisory
Committee, the top arbiter of Code issues. We fought to a
draw: we finally agreed to put in the vent to get our final
passed, and the committee permanently tabled the issue so
there is no precedent set. To continue to fight this would
have required bringing in professional engineers, as some of
the committee members were reluctant to make their own
decisions about the issue and wanted to pass the buck. As I
recall, the Zephyr Power Vent was ultimately never hooked up
to the Classic controller's auxiliary, as the necessary work
was handled by the GC (rather than by us) at a quite remote
location. The challenge to the AHJ was a pain in the butt,
although we were paid by the clients for the effort, as they
agreed with the absurdity of the inspector's demand.<br>
<br>
I have attached a few documents I gathered and prepared in
this case. You do not need to vent AGMs if the larger space in
which the battery enclosure is located has a typical and
normal amount of natural air circulation and convective air
exchange. Also, you can't duplicate what Kevin describes below
with a vented enclosure - Kevin's approach requires a "sealed
and vented battery enclosure". By design, your enclosure is
unsealed.<br>
<br>
Putting in vents "for the next guy" also makes no sense. If
you install 8 flooded L16s on two shelves in a Midnite
MNBE-Cl16 enclosure, you won't be able to routinely add water
to the cells. The cabinet was designed and built for VRLA
batteries. So any venting you install now would have to be
redone to fit a cabinet built for flooded batteries with top
access.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
<b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a><br>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.<br>
<b>505 780-2738 cell</b><br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/21/2014 1:30 PM, Bob Clark wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">RE-Wrenches: <br>
<br>
2014 NEC 480.9 (A) has two informational notes that seem to
point to the possibility of not having to vent AGMs.<br>
<br>
Here is what I was going to do with 8 Concorde SunXtender
Batteries, 6V, 405Ah, L16, PVX-4050HT:<br>
<br>
1. Put them in a Midnite Solar, MNBE-CL16 Battery Enclosure
(which is not a sealed box) in a “battery closet."<br>
2. Vent the box out of the top of the box and through the
wall of the house with pipes like Kevin Pegg suggests.<br>
<br>
Do any of you see any problems with this? Venting
unnecessary?<br>
<br>
One consideration is the “next guy” who occupies this house
may want flooded batteries, in which case, the vent system
would definitely be necessary.<br>
<br>
Bob Clark<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:bclark@solar-wind.us">bclark@solar-wind.us</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Apr 4, 2014, at 2:49 PM, Kevin Pegg <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kpegg@energyalternatives.ca">
kpegg@energyalternatives.ca</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">Hi
William, <br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">In the cold north
here in Canada, this is the most common way we install
batteries - within the heated envelope of a home or shop,
installed in a sealed & vented battery enclosure. <br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">Hydrogen is easy to
vent as it is lighter than air. We use a process similar to
below. I see a lot of installations with power vents that
are not done properly - exhaust only but no intake as
example. They can also fail. Or installed in such a way that
outside wind influences could actually reverse the flow and
pressurize the battery box! Air flow needs to be balanced. <br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bdbatteries.com/hydrogenventing.php">http://www.bdbatteries.com/hydrogenventing.php</a><br>
To remove the thermal air currents present in a battery box
venting system, you must create a natural heat sink between
the vent tubes to neutralize the difference in temperature.
This in turn will stagnate the air, allowing the hydrogen
which is lighter than air, to rise and escape the battery
box. Make sure the smaller tube, the one inside, extends to
the bottom of the box. This will allow "heavier" fresh air
to fall to the floor of the box and retard hydrogen entry.
The intake for the hydrogen is at the top of the box, the
exterior tube in the system. Hydrogen will travel in the
opposite direction through the larger outer pipe as it is
lighter than the air surrounding it. Several good methods
for constructing this vent system exist, we particularly
like to see 1/2 inch copper pipes inside 1 inch pipe. Any
highly conductive metal pipe will work it will transfer heat
quickly. Galvanized, steel, and other pipes that spark when
rubbed aren't as great. DO NOT USE THESE IN EARTHQUAKE
ZONES. <br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue">DO NOT USE PVC FOR
THIS VENT SYSTEM....PVC DOES NOT CONDUCT HEAT WELL ENOUGH!
Copper, aluminum, and other non sparking conductive metals
are great! <br>
<Outlook.bmp><br>
</span> <br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:blue"><Outlook.bmp></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">-----Original
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">
mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]On
Behalf Of <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:william@millersolar.com">william@millersolar.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Sent:
April 4, 2014 9:29 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">To:
RE-wrenches<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">Subject:
[RE-wrenches] Batteries in a dwelling</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Friends:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">I am proposing
installation of vented batteries in a first floor garage of a
dwelling. The dwelling areas are on the second floor. I am
nervous about the cohabitation of batteries and humans.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">I reviewed the NEC
and could not find any prohibition. Do any of you have any
advice on how this is accomplished in the mot safe manor? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">I presume good
ventilation and an otherwise sealed room are advised. I will
propose additional smoke detectors, locked doors and I will
research hydrogen detectors. A good spill kit and all PPE
will be staged as usual.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Thanks in advance
for the forthcoming, always expert advice.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">William Miller<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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