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<br>
The Sunny Island has circuitry to protect itself over 56 amps. I
think it shuts off.<br>
<br>
The 60 amp circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring.
Customers complain when they cannot<br>
get the full 56 amps from the system and 50 amps is the next
nominal current breaker below 60 A.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
On 7/3/2014 11:09 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Yes
it is. But since you have to install inverters based on the
manufacturer’s requirements, SMA’s instructions trump
MidNite’s, IMHO. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Since
MidNite and SMA worked jointly together to develop those
E-Panels, I can only assume that either it’s an oversight on
both of their parts, or that SMA is being very conservative
on the switch rating in their installation manual and
“Technical Description”, where that line I quoted is
repeated. This wouldn’t surprise me, but if so SMA needs to
issue a correction.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Maybe
boB at MidNite or Steve from SMA will pipe in with some
info…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Brian
Teitelbaum</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">AEE
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ray Walters<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 03, 2014 10:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">A 60 amp continuously rated AC breaker is
what is actually being used in the UL listed E Panel from
Midnite. <br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>R.Ray Walters</pre>
<pre>CTO, Solarray, Inc</pre>
<pre>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, </pre>
<pre>Licensed Master Electrician</pre>
<pre>Solar Design Engineer</pre>
<pre>303 505-8760</pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">
On 7/3/2014 9:01 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Mac,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Be
careful with breaker sizing here. The transfer switch in
the SMA SI5048 is only rated for 56A at 120 VAC. From the
SI manual:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">“The
maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56 A.
Higher input currents must not be connected to the Sunny
Island.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">To
protect that switch properly, you would need to use a 50A
breaker (unless you can find a 55A breaker that fits in
your AC panel). Since most common AC breakers are only
rated for 80% duty, you would need to limit that 50A
breaker to a continuous 40A load. That’s more than the max
output current of the Fronius 10.0-1, although it’s
debatable that the output of a PV inverter is
“continuous”. It certainly could be in some situations,
especially with a tracker mount, although even with a
fixed array, you could see max rated output for at least a
couple of hours per day.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
agree with the suggestion of putting part of the PV array
on a 5kW Sunny Boy, or adding a second Sunny Island and
using two Sunny Boy 5000’s. Using two Islands would
eliminate the need for a transformer, and allow for full
array power during grid outages.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Brian
Teitelbaum </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">AEE
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mac Lewis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 03, 2014 9:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Wrenches,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry, I think you are correct, sma
gear all around would be best. This will be my
recommendation but I am sensitive to this substantial
cost.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave, if I add the second Sunny
Island, I don't think I will be throttled back because
the transfer relays are rated for 60A. This should pass
the full current of the output of the Fronius, which is
41.7A. My concern is more during backup mode, if the
Sunny Islands could "trick" the Fronius into staying on
line. I would add either load dump relay control or an
AC interrupt relay to knock the Fronius off-line if the
batteries were full, in addition to the frequency shift
control that the Sunny Island offers.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the input, I'll shoot for
all SMA gear.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Dave
Click <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu" target="_blank">daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mac, that Island interconnects with
a max 70A 1P breaker (6.7kW continuous), so unless
they have a constant critical load draw or the Fronius
is massively oversized, you probably don't want to AC
couple the Fronius. The 5048 is also able to output a
continuous 5000W only when it's cooler than 77F and it
derates above that (4500W at 95F, for example). I
don't believe its surge ratings apply to the AC2
output back into the utility but they probably
wouldn't be enough, anyway. I think that whenever the
Fronius output reached about 6000W, the SI would shift
its frequency to switch the Fronius off. Cheapest may
be along the lines of your first option-- not sure
what the PV stringing is like but maybe you could move
a string or two off the Fronius and put it onto a new
Sunny Boy with an autoformer. Since I imagine this
system doesn't have PV WIRE on the module leads or
home runs, officially I'd recommend a classic Sunny
Boy. Then leave the Fronius as-is. <br>
<br>
Unless of course the customer thought they were buying
a system with the full 10kW supplying critical loads
when the utility is down... then the original
contractor is stuck with buying the second SI they
should have installed in the first place.<br>
<br>
DKC</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2014/7/3, 10:46, Mac Lewis
wrote:</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello wrenches, </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I wanted to run this
scenario by the forum. I have spoken with
SMA about this, but want some other
opinions.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We were recently
contracted by a fellow solar company to do
some warranty work for them out of town on a
Sunny Island system that they had installed
about 5 years ago. It was VERY poorly
implemented originally and was never
installed as SMA intended. In fact, during
a small power outage, the only loads that
never came back on after the utility was
back on line were the loads in the critical
load panel. Oops. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anyway, our job is to get
it working properly for the least amount of
cost possible. They have a Fronius IG Plus
10.0 fed into a 400A service panel. The
Sunny Island 5048 AC Input also comes off of
this panel and feeding a 120V only critical
load panel. Please note that there is no
solar fed into the AC output side of the
Sunny Island, because there is not 120/240
available and thus there is no possible way
for this system to utilize the solar while
the grid is not present.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I see two options (but
there may be more): pull out Fronius, put in
Sunny Boy inverters and an autoformer, wire
properly. Another option is to add second
Sunny Island and try to AC couple the
Fronius with the two Sunny Islands. The
second option is less expensive overall, but
I'm hesitant to rely on AC coupling with the
Fronius.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'd appreciate any
thoughts on this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Mac Lewis</p>
<p><span style="color:#305a78">"Yo solo sé que
no sé nada." </span><b><span
style="color:#686868">-Sócrates</span></b></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
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