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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
I'll let Robin weigh in here as well...<br>
<br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Brian,
It used to be very clear on the older 5048 Sunny Island. They
wanted a 70 amp breaker connected to the input. They were
assuming a thermal breaker. 70 times .8 = 56. We use
hydraulic/magnetic breakers. They only go up to 60 amps and
can be ran at full current continuously. You cannot feed a 56
amp circuit with less than a 56 amp breaker, so 60 works just
fine. The Sunny Island does shut down above 56 amps. SMA is
not counting on a breaker to keep from breaking the inverter.
That would never work. The breaker is there to protect the
wiring, not the relay or anything else in the inverter.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Robin</span><br>
<br>
<br>
On 7/4/2014 11:30 AM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:2326703a381c71cb0416ac025b562856@mail.gmail.com"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Thanks
for the clarification boB.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
would still however like to get confirmation from that the
Sunny Island does indeed protect itself from AC current over
56A. It says nothing to this effect in the literature (at
least that I can find), and would seem to contradict the
“Higher input currents must not be connected to the Sunny
Island” that it actually does say.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Steve,
if you see this, could you please confirm the automated AC
current protection circuitry? </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">If
we don’t get a reply from Steve on this list, I’ll contact
him directly and post his reply here, although it might be
after the Intersolar show next week.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Brian
Teitelbaum</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">AEE
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:boB@midnitesolar.com">boB@midnitesolar.com</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 04, 2014 11:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
The Sunny Island has circuitry to protect itself over 56
amps. I think it shuts off.<br>
<br>
The 60 amp circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring.
Customers complain when they cannot<br>
get the full 56 amps from the system and 50 amps is the next
nominal current breaker below 60 A.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
On 7/3/2014 11:09 PM, Brian Teitelbaum wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Yes
it is. But since you have to install inverters based on
the manufacturer’s requirements, SMA’s instructions trump
MidNite’s, IMHO. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Since
MidNite and SMA worked jointly together to develop those
E-Panels, I can only assume that either it’s an oversight
on both of their parts, or that SMA is being very
conservative on the switch rating in their installation
manual and “Technical Description”, where that line I
quoted is repeated. This wouldn’t surprise me, but if so
SMA needs to issue a correction.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Maybe
boB at MidNite or Steve from SMA will pipe in with some
info…</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Brian
Teitelbaum</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">AEE
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ray Walters<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 03, 2014 10:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island
retrofit</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
A 60 amp continuously rated AC breaker is what is actually
being used in the UL listed E Panel from Midnite. <br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>R.Ray Walters</pre>
<pre>CTO, Solarray, Inc</pre>
<pre>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, </pre>
<pre>Licensed Master Electrician</pre>
<pre>Solar Design Engineer</pre>
<pre>303 505-8760</pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 7/3/2014 9:01 PM, Brian Teitelbaum
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Mac,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Be
careful with breaker sizing here. The transfer switch in
the SMA SI5048 is only rated for 56A at 120 VAC. From
the SI manual:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">“The
maximum input current allowed on the Sunny Island is 56
A. Higher input currents must not be connected to the
Sunny Island.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">To
protect that switch properly, you would need to use a
50A breaker (unless you can find a 55A breaker that fits
in your AC panel). Since most common AC breakers are
only rated for 80% duty, you would need to limit that
50A breaker to a continuous 40A load. That’s more than
the max output current of the Fronius 10.0-1, although
it’s debatable that the output of a PV inverter is
“continuous”. It certainly could be in some situations,
especially with a tracker mount, although even with a
fixed array, you could see max rated output for at least
a couple of hours per day.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
agree with the suggestion of putting part of the PV
array on a 5kW Sunny Boy, or adding a second Sunny
Island and using two Sunny Boy 5000’s. Using two Islands
would eliminate the need for a transformer, and allow
for full array power during grid outages.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Brian
Teitelbaum </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">AEE
Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
RE-wrenches [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mac Lewis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 03, 2014 9:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island retrofit</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hi Wrenches,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jerry, I think you are correct, sma
gear all around would be best. This will be my
recommendation but I am sensitive to this substantial
cost.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dave, if I add the second Sunny
Island, I don't think I will be throttled back because
the transfer relays are rated for 60A. This should
pass the full current of the output of the Fronius,
which is 41.7A. My concern is more during backup
mode, if the Sunny Islands could "trick" the Fronius
into staying on line. I would add either load dump
relay control or an AC interrupt relay to knock the
Fronius off-line if the batteries were full, in
addition to the frequency shift control that the Sunny
Island offers.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for the input, I'll shoot
for all SMA gear.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:23 AM,
Dave Click <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu" target="_blank">daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Mac, that Island interconnects
with a max 70A 1P breaker (6.7kW continuous), so
unless they have a constant critical load draw or
the Fronius is massively oversized, you probably
don't want to AC couple the Fronius. The 5048 is
also able to output a continuous 5000W only when
it's cooler than 77F and it derates above that
(4500W at 95F, for example). I don't believe its
surge ratings apply to the AC2 output back into the
utility but they probably wouldn't be enough,
anyway. I think that whenever the Fronius output
reached about 6000W, the SI would shift its
frequency to switch the Fronius off. Cheapest may be
along the lines of your first option-- not sure what
the PV stringing is like but maybe you could move a
string or two off the Fronius and put it onto a new
Sunny Boy with an autoformer. Since I imagine this
system doesn't have PV WIRE on the module leads or
home runs, officially I'd recommend a classic Sunny
Boy. Then leave the Fronius as-is. <br>
<br>
Unless of course the customer thought they were
buying a system with the full 10kW supplying
critical loads when the utility is down... then the
original contractor is stuck with buying the second
SI they should have installed in the first place.<br>
<br>
DKC</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2014/7/3, 10:46, Mac
Lewis wrote:</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Hello wrenches, </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I wanted to run this
scenario by the forum. I have spoken with
SMA about this, but want some other
opinions.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">We were recently
contracted by a fellow solar company to do
some warranty work for them out of town on
a Sunny Island system that they had
installed about 5 years ago. It was VERY
poorly implemented originally and was
never installed as SMA intended. In fact,
during a small power outage, the only
loads that never came back on after the
utility was back on line were the loads in
the critical load panel. Oops. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Anyway, our job is to
get it working properly for the least
amount of cost possible. They have a
Fronius IG Plus 10.0 fed into a 400A
service panel. The Sunny Island 5048 AC
Input also comes off of this panel and
feeding a 120V only critical load panel.
Please note that there is no solar fed
into the AC output side of the Sunny
Island, because there is not 120/240
available and thus there is no possible
way for this system to utilize the solar
while the grid is not present.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I see two options (but
there may be more): pull out Fronius, put
in Sunny Boy inverters and an autoformer,
wire properly. Another option is to add
second Sunny Island and try to AC couple
the Fronius with the two Sunny Islands.
The second option is less expensive
overall, but I'm hesitant to rely on AC
coupling with the Fronius.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'd appreciate any
thoughts on this.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thanks</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Mac Lewis</p>
<p><span style="color:#305a78">"Yo solo sé
que no sé nada." </span><b><span
style="color:#686868">-Sócrates</span></b></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
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