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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Thanks for this info Phil, we were just
consulting on PG&E project that took a turn for the worse. <br>
It seems that the limit would just be the inverter capacity.
Couldn't you have a larger battery bank and keep the inverter
continuous sell capacity below 10 kW to meet the rule? (like the
Radian....)<br>
Many batteries would not do well at a 2 hr discharge rate, or even
a 6 hr rate. A 20 hr. max discharge rate would make more sense,
and be more compliant with battery industry standards.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
On 7/3/2014 3:48 PM, Phil Undercuffler wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAPLQxE+oXx0yb72yY76720nFT3C1ETvLZwOu+sfwziicbqaWgw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi
all,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
The kW is correct, although it does run counter to most every
definition of a battery we're used to -- I guess you could say
the vectors of physics and policy are not always aligned. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">The
entire "kW" issue ties back to the self-generation incentive
program (SGIP), which currently pays about $1.80/Watt for
energy storage. I had many long discussions this past year
with policymakers and the program administrators at the CCSE,
and they really helped me understand the reasons behind how
energy storage came to be defined in kW, not kWh. The Governor
and other policymakers want to achieve reduced greenhouse gas
emissions, and in order to do that we need a more efficient
grid -- renewables are now as cheap or cheaper than
traditional generation, but due to the variability (of loads
and generation) and increased reliance on natural gas GHG
emissions are trending up, not down. We can't generate our
way out of this cycle; storage is a key tool in moving to the
next stage, and the policymakers wanted to provide tools to
increase the adoption of storage on the grid.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">In
the sometimes convoluted way that policy sometimes takes, the
best tool they had available was SGIP, so they added Advanced
Energy Storage to SGIP. Since SGIP is a "generator" program,
in order to make this work they had to define AES in terms of
a generator. Therefore, the battery is rated in terms of the
capacity that it can provide to (or the capacity that it
replaces from) the grid, for a period of time, which is
defined as a two hour period.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">To
turn that into actual (if rough) numbers, let's say you have a
200 AH battery. The 200 AH is only at the 100 hour rate, so
you need a manufacturer that provides the one or two hour
rate, where it's good for 103 AH, or 4.944 kWh per string to
total exhaustion. You don't want to flatline the battery, so
let's use 80% DOD, which would be 3.95 kWh per string. You
need to be able to provide this capacity for two hours, so cut
that number in half for 1.97 kWh rated capacity. Per the SGIP
handbook, "<span
style="font-size:16px;color:rgb(1,1,1);font-family:Arial">The
purpose of the SGIP is to contribute to Greenhouse Gas (GHG)
emission reductions, demand </span><span
style="font-size:16px;color:rgb(1,1,1);font-family:Arial">reductions
and reduced customer electricity purchases, resulting in the
electric system reliability through </span><span
style="font-size:16px;color:rgb(1,1,1);font-family:Arial">improved
transmission and distribution system utilization; as well as
market transformation for distributed </span><span
style="font-size:16px;color:rgb(1,1,1);font-family:Arial">energy
resource (DER) technologies." </span>Put two strings of
that battery together with a ~4kW battery based inverter and a
program that meets that purpose, and you're off to the races.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">If
the inverter/battery is 10kW or less per this definition,
there are no metering requirements. For systems larger than
10kW, or if you wish to use the metering requirements of
systems larger than 10kW you can meter the load, the
generation and the total energy flow at the PCC, and the
utility can't charge you more than $600 for all of this
metering. There's a writeup on the OutBack website on how to
use two meters plus a NEM meter to do this.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hope
this helps,</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small">Phil
Undercuffler</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Bruce
Erickson <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruce@mendocinosolar.com" target="_blank">bruce@mendocinosolar.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hi Wrenches,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here is the only info I've seen regarding NEM with
batteries in California. It's a May 15 news post from
CALSEIA, which Brad allowed me to post here.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One problem clearly is defining the categories,
because what is a storage system "larger than 10 kW"?
Seems like there's an "h" factor missing.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Even for category 1, "internal metering devices"
could be a Mate3 for instance, but how can a Mate report
directly to the utility?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This whole thing is a mess, IMO. I'm still curious,
are any other California Wrenches dealing with utility
NEM departments for systems with storage in the last few
months, and what has been your experience?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
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<h1
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color="#003366"><strong>News Alert</strong></font></h1>
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CALSEIA
Members,</h2>
<div><br>
Earlier today,
the California
Public
Utilities
Commission
voted to
finalize the
decision on
the
interconnection
of solar
systems paired
with energy
storage
systems under
net metering.<br>
<br>
First, and
most
importantly,
the decision
restores the
ability of
solar systems
paired with
storage to
qualify under
the standard
net metering
tariff. For
the past year,
utilities had
refused to
connect
systems with
batteries
under NEM.<br>
<br>
However, the
decision
includes new
requirements.
It effectively
creates three
categories of
systems.<br>
<br>
1. Storage
systems
smaller than
10 kW maximum
output power
can be paired
with any size
solar system
and do not
have to
install a
second meter.
The associated
solar systems
will have to
report system
production to
the utility
using internal
metering
devices to
make sure NEM
credits are
only going to
solar output
and not
battery
output.<br>
<br>
2. Storage
systems larger
than 10 kW
with maximum
power output
less than 150%
of solar
system
capacity will
have to
install a
second meter
at a cost of
up to $600 to
make sure NEM
credits are
only going to
solar output
and not
battery
output.<br>
<br>
3. Storage
systems larger
than 10 kW
with maximum
power output
more than 150%
of solar
system
capacity will
be on the
NEM-MT tariff
rather than
the standard
NEM tariff. In
addition to
the $600
meter, they
will have to
pay an
application
fee of $800
and could
potentially be
subject to
standby
charges and
distribution
system studies
and upgrades.
They will
still get net
metering
credits for
electricity
they put on
the grid from
the solar
system.<br>
<br>
These limits
are an
improvement
over the
limits that
were in the
proposed
decision. The
Commission did
not include
all of
CALSEIA's
recommendations,
but it
included some
significant
movement in
the right
direction.</div>
<ul>
<li>The
threshold
between the
categories
above was
changed from
100% to 150%
of the paired
generator’s
output power.</li>
<li>A kWh
storage limit
of the storage
system was
eliminated
(how many
hours worth of
electricity
can be
stored).</li>
<li>A de-rate
formula that
would have
potentially
reduced the
value of NEM
credits was
abandoned.</li>
<li>Utilities
must refund
application
fees that were
illegally
collected over
the past year.</li>
</ul>
I would be
happy to
answer any
questions you
have with
regard to how
the conditions
in the
decision would
apply to
specific
system
configurations.<br>
<br>
Thank you for
your help in
achieving this
decision.<br>
<br>
<img
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width="200"><br>
Brad Heavner<br>
Policy
Director,
CALSEIA</td>
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
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