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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">William, Ray and Wrenches,<br>
You're not alone on this issue. We faced it and did not come up
with a good resolution nearly two years ago. This is a Wrenches
writeup from June 2012 that never got posted:<o:p> <br>
</o:p>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt;text-align:center"
align="center"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>Four
Sunny Islands and one Radian
Outback </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt;text-align:center"
align="center">Fine
Stranded Cable and Sunny Island Inverters </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt;text-align:center"
align="center"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt"><o:p></o:p>This
is a brief overview of a
project that involved the desire to use fine stranded UL
compliant Cobra X-Flex
Cable for the battery 48 Volt DC input on a quad stack Sunny
Island system.
Traditionally we have installed standard doubled up #2 THWN
for each Positive
and Negative terminals on the Sunny Island. A single 2/0 THWN
cable is very
difficult to install because of the tight bends through the
1½”<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span><span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>metal
flex conduit, and to get away from doubling up #2 we came up
with the
idea of using fine stranded cable. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt">This system
involved four Sunny
Island inverters and one Outback Radian inverter. In this case
we actually
downsized from the standard 175 amp to smaller 125 Amp
disconnects for the
5kW Sunny Island inverters. This was done because having an
additional Outback
inverter in the system meant that we would need to install a
whole system shunt
in order for the master Sunny Island to properly maintain
Battery SOC. The
shunt we intended to use was rated 1000 Amps, but not rated
for continuous
duty. With four 125 Amp breakers for the Sunny Islands and two
175 Amp breakers
for the Radian this would total 850 Amps as the highest
potential for the 1000
Amp shunt. This also meant that we could use single 1/0 fine
stranded
conductors for the DC inputs to the Sunny Islands. We went
ahead and ordered
around 70 feet of fine stranded 1/0 Cobra X-Flex. [Followup
note: the 125A DC breakers have worked well with no nuisance
tripping in this residential application.] </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt"><span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span>The bright idea of using
fine stranded cables quickly
became more of a headache then an actual great solution to
small conduit and
difficult bending radiuses. It stated clearly in the Sunny
Island installation
manual that the terminals were not rated for fine stranded
cable. Thus we
decided to go ahead and post the subject on the Wrenches List
and the solution
to the problem is easily solved by installing a ferrule. I
browsed through some
of the links supplied by the Wrenches list of companies that
manufactured
ferrules. I found 1/0 ferrules that were about 7/8” long to
fit into the
terminal lugs of the Sunny Island Inverters. I began looking
at the outside
dimension of the ferrules and the inside dimension of the
terminal lugs and it
turned out that the ferrule was slightly too large by around
1/64” to fit into
the terminal lug before tightening down the terminal screw. I
had never
installed a ferrule before and assumed that it just meant
sliding the wire into
the ferule and sliding it into the terminal lug and tightening
down the
terminal screw. My assumption that the ferrule would not
actually fit into the
terminal lug may have been totally wrong due to the fact that
once crimped it
may have actually fit anyway. Without a proper ferrule crimper
and with the
thought that the ferrule would not fit I began looking for
another solution to
the problem.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt">I started
browsing the Ilsco
catalog and found pigtail adapters as the solution to the
issue. These adaptors
would crimp onto the fine stranded cable and had a pigtail of
coarse strands
that would go into the terminal lugs of the Sunny Island
Inverters. Thinking
that I had found the solution to the problem I went ahead and
scheduled the
electrical aspect of the system and on site gave my right hand
man the instructions
for the pigtail adapter installation. During the installation
he suddenly came
to me and said that he could not install the pigtail adaptors
because on the
inverter it said “use copper conductors only” and the tails of
the pigtail
adapters were aluminum strands. I then looked directly at the
terminal lugs on
the inverters and the actual rating stamp was listed as CU9AL.
I thought that
as the terminal lugs are rated for aluminum, there should be
no problem. I
decided to call SMA tech support to find out if I could indeed
use the aluminum
pigtail adaptors. I spoke with Bill of SMA and sent him text
photos of the
pigtail adaptors and also sent him a photo of the terminal lug
showing that it
was rated for aluminum. He said that aluminum conductors have
a lot higher
resistance and voltage loss, thus the inverter would not be
able to maintain
accurate SOC for the batteries. I then suggested that as the
pigtail adaptors
were only three inches long in total and the tail itself was
only one and a
quarter inches in length, there could not possibly be enough
resistance and
voltage loss for such a short length. He said that he really
did not know why I
could not use them and would have to send the information off
to Germany for
the SMA engineers to evaluate. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt">Being that this
was off to the Engineers
and we were on the job, I spoke to my superior of the issue
and was instructed
to just go ahead and use the aluminum pigtail adaptors and not
worry about it.
There could not possibly be a reason not to use them being
that the lugs
themselves were rated for aluminum. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt">About a week
later Bill from SMA
finally got back to me and said that the engineers had finally
got back to him.
They said that the lugs on the inverter had actually been
modified and I could
not use the pigtail adaptors after all.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt">Now that the
system is fully ready
to go, pigtail adaptors and all. I have began to lose sleep
over the whole
conundrum feeling that if anything were to ever go wrong with
those
connections, SMA would not honor any warranty on the
inverters. Just the fact
that anything could go wrong is unnerving enough, warranty or
no warranty.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:9.0pt">What is the real
solution to the now
current issue? If I had a 1/0 ferrule crimper I might try to
actually go the
ferrule route. I could look for copper pigtail adaptors or use
a different type
of terminal adapter that had a flat blade terminal instead of
wire strands.<br>
</p>
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<![endif]--></blockquote>
It looks as though Glenn's suggestion of the Greaves Shoo-Pin
would work well, as long as it is copper. Is it, Glenn? Also,
Jim's Allied bootlace ferrules would also resolve this, but at a
pretty steep price considering how often it would be used.<br>
<br>
Here are two relevant posts from John Berdner of SolarEdge
(formerly of SMA America) about this issue in February 2013. These
are more focused on SI5048 conductor and breaker size:<br>
<blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Ryan:
Not sure what is in the manual now but...the lugs in the SI 5048U are dual 2/0.
We had to use parallel AWG #1 because we kind of painted ourselves into a corner.
The breaker in the SI ended up being 250 Amps, the conduit fitting was only 1.5" and the wire bending space was too small for a 3/0.
The only way to get enough Ampacity in a 1.5" conduit and that wire bending space was to go with dual #1's.
The 250 Amp breaker was used just to get enough current for the very short duration surges without tripping the breaker (12kW per SI).
If not for this a 200 A breaker would have been fine.
Note that the actual full power ampacity required for normal operation is 5kW @ 40 Vdc = 125 Amps continuous.
It is the high surge loads that require more current.
I run mine with a single 2/0 and we have never even come close to hitting full power.
Worst case current is typically while charging, not when inverting, and I set the current limit so that I do not exceed ampacity of 2/0.
In my experience it takes >= 14kW generator to drive a pair of SI's to full power while charging
Best Regards,
John Berdner
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
Allan:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
In my experience, the worst case currents occur during battery charging following a deep discharge. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> (You should see a generator exhaust pipe at night when charging hard – such a pretty shade of yellow/orange.)</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p>
</o:p></span></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
SI has parameters you can set to limit the maximum charge
rates which should solve your concern. This is found in SI
Parameter #222.01 under the Battery Settings menu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">#222
Battery Charge Mode<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">No.
__Name Description__Value Explanation ___Default value<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">01__
BatChrgCurMax__Charging current of the battery10 A … 1200
A__1,200 A<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
am not sure if this value is the sum of the SI currents or
if this is actually the value the inverters read off the
external current shunt needed for DC coupled systems. I
think the SI uses the current shunt value (if present) but I
am not sure - Check with SMA Support to find out. If it is
the former then you would need to consider the Radian charge
current and subtract that off your maximum allowed value
then enter that “net” value into the SI’s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As
I mentioned in my earlier posts the breaker in the SI was
selected to match the short duration current versus time
trip curves. Since the SI can do very substantial surges (up
to 12 kVA per inverter) the short duration tripping
characteristics were key. As I recall the breaker was
actually 2 internally parallel AMS 125 (non-standard part
from Eaton). See curve 252 (DC 25x) data on page 8 of the
following <a
href="http://www.heinemann-electric.com/acrobat/ams-cata.pdf">http://www.heinemann-electric.com/acrobat/ams-cata.pdf.
</a>Not sure what breaker is used in current SI production
but the characteristics should be similar to the above.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">In
normal operation the maximum continuous current will be the
inverter rating divided by minimum battery voltage. I ASS U
ME this is where the 125 Amp recommendation for a SI5000
comes from (5000W/40Vdc). Never mind that pesky 1.25 * the
continuous current NEC thingy.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
you are using an external OCPD be sure to use a L…O…N…G time
delay type and compare the short duration trip
characteristics of your OCPD to that of the SI’s breaker. If
your OCPD will trip “sooner” than the SI’s breaker you may
see nuisance tripping of your OCPD during high surge
events. There might be a parameter to limit the maximum
discharge (surge) current but I could not find it in my
admittedly quick skim of the SI manual. If you do not
foresee very high surge loads (motor starting) this will not
be an issue. 48 kVA seems like one heck of a surge but, then
again, I have not seen the customer’s home.</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best
Regards,<o:p> <br>
</o:p></span></p>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John
Berdner</span><br>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span>General
Manager, North America
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.<br>
</blockquote>
William, the core issue of fine-stranded cables was brought out by
John Wiles about ten years ago. He wrote about the issue in a 2004
Home Power Code Corner article that can be accessed here:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/CC104.pdf">http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/CC104.pdf</a>.<br>
<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
<b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
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<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder (Retired), <span
style="mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">Positive Energy,
Inc.</span><br>
<b>505 780-2738 cell</b><br
style="mso-special-character:line-break">
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On 4/30/2014 12:01 AM, William Miller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:EDF08435-40A8-44F9-AEF3-0A89A5B6C648@millersolar.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Ray:
Darn good question, especially since I will be doing the exact same thing, *tomorrow*.
I have never been clear on the real problem. Fine stranded cables overheat in the wrong lugs? Is this true for mechanical or compression?
Aside from code compliance, what is the best common sense approach to Sunny Islands with fine stranded? Annual retorquing? Pin terminals? Solder tinning the strands?????
I used to wrap thin copper sheeting around fine stranded just to corral the strands. Is this a possible solution?
Thanks Ray for bringing up a question I forgot to consider.
William
Miller Solar
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"><ray@solarray.com></a> wrote:
Hi All;
In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with Cobra X flex cable.
While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated for flex or fine stranded cable.
Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters. Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.
>From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on pigtail adapter. It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over sized cables into smaller lugs. (2/0 to #1, for instance)
The best I've found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the wire, right in the connection:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compression-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx">http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compression-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx</a>
I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB0301.pdf">http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB0301.pdf</a>
So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?
The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail adapters are coming in at $40/ ea...... (ouch)
On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles 690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?
And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug that was flex rated?
For example, Marathon makes Class K rated mechanical Lugs: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html">http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html</a>
I'd use THHN, but I really don't feel good about wiring the Heineman breakers with that stiff a wire. I've cracked breaker cases before......that's why the X flex is industry standard for off grid DC.
Thanks for your help,
--
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
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