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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Why yes they are copper, thanks for asking.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Well the list would not let me attach the cut sheet – so here is a link I hope works…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.greaves-usa.com/pdf/Shoo-Pin%20Color%20Sheet.pdf">http://www.greaves-usa.com/pdf/Shoo-Pin%20Color%20Sheet.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>-Glenn<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 30, 2014 11:32 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Cc:</b> Positive Energy, Inc.<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>William, Ray and Wrenches,<br>You're not alone on this issue. We faced it and did not come up with a good resolution nearly two years ago. This is a Wrenches writeup from June 2012 that never got posted: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt;text-align:center'> Four Sunny Islands and one Radian Outback <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt;text-align:center'>Fine Stranded Cable and Sunny Island Inverters <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt;text-align:center'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'>This is a brief overview of a project that involved the desire to use fine stranded UL compliant Cobra X-Flex Cable for the battery 48 Volt DC input on a quad stack Sunny Island system. Traditionally we have installed standard doubled up #2 THWN for each Positive and Negative terminals on the Sunny Island. A single 2/0 THWN cable is very difficult to install because of the tight bends through the 1½” metal flex conduit, and to get away from doubling up #2 we came up with the idea of using fine stranded cable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'>This system involved four Sunny Island inverters and one Outback Radian inverter. In this case we actually downsized from the standard 175 amp to smaller 125 Amp disconnects for the 5kW Sunny Island inverters. This was done because having an additional Outback inverter in the system meant that we would need to install a whole system shunt in order for the master Sunny Island to properly maintain Battery SOC. The shunt we intended to use was rated 1000 Amps, but not rated for continuous duty. With four 125 Amp breakers for the Sunny Islands and two 175 Amp breakers for the Radian this would total 850 Amps as the highest potential for the 1000 Amp shunt. This also meant that we could use single 1/0 fine stranded conductors for the DC inputs to the Sunny Islands. We went ahead and ordered around 70 feet of fine stranded 1/0 Cobra X-Flex. [Followup note: the 125A DC breakers have worked well with no nuisance tripping in this residential application.] <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'>The bright idea of using fine stranded cables quickly became more of a headache then an actual great solution to small conduit and difficult bending radiuses. It stated clearly in the Sunny Island installation manual that the terminals were not rated for fine stranded cable. Thus we decided to go ahead and post the subject on the Wrenches List and the solution to the problem is easily solved by installing a ferrule. I browsed through some of the links supplied by the Wrenches list of companies that manufactured ferrules. I found 1/0 ferrules that were about 7/8” long to fit into the terminal lugs of the Sunny Island Inverters. I began looking at the outside dimension of the ferrules and the inside dimension of the terminal lugs and it turned out that the ferrule was slightly too large by around 1/64” to fit into the terminal lug before tightening down the terminal screw. I had never installed a ferrule before and assumed that it just meant sliding the wire into the ferule and sliding it into the terminal lug and tightening down the terminal screw. My assumption that the ferrule would not actually fit into the terminal lug may have been totally wrong due to the fact that once crimped it may have actually fit anyway. Without a proper ferrule crimper and with the thought that the ferrule would not fit I began looking for another solution to the problem.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'>I started browsing the Ilsco catalog and found pigtail adapters as the solution to the issue. These adaptors would crimp onto the fine stranded cable and had a pigtail of coarse strands that would go into the terminal lugs of the Sunny Island Inverters. Thinking that I had found the solution to the problem I went ahead and scheduled the electrical aspect of the system and on site gave my right hand man the instructions for the pigtail adapter installation. During the installation he suddenly came to me and said that he could not install the pigtail adaptors because on the inverter it said “use copper conductors only” and the tails of the pigtail adapters were aluminum strands. I then looked directly at the terminal lugs on the inverters and the actual rating stamp was listed as CU9AL. I thought that as the terminal lugs are rated for aluminum, there should be no problem. I decided to call SMA tech support to find out if I could indeed use the aluminum pigtail adaptors. I spoke with Bill of SMA and sent him text photos of the pigtail adaptors and also sent him a photo of the terminal lug showing that it was rated for aluminum. He said that aluminum conductors have a lot higher resistance and voltage loss, thus the inverter would not be able to maintain accurate SOC for the batteries. I then suggested that as the pigtail adaptors were only three inches long in total and the tail itself was only one and a quarter inches in length, there could not possibly be enough resistance and voltage loss for such a short length. He said that he really did not know why I could not use them and would have to send the information off to Germany for the SMA engineers to evaluate. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'>Being that this was off to the Engineers and we were on the job, I spoke to my superior of the issue and was instructed to just go ahead and use the aluminum pigtail adaptors and not worry about it. There could not possibly be a reason not to use them being that the lugs themselves were rated for aluminum. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'>About a week later Bill from SMA finally got back to me and said that the engineers had finally got back to him. They said that the lugs on the inverter had actually been modified and I could not use the pigtail adaptors after all.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'>Now that the system is fully ready to go, pigtail adaptors and all. I have began to lose sleep over the whole conundrum feeling that if anything were to ever go wrong with those connections, SMA would not honor any warranty on the inverters. Just the fact that anything could go wrong is unnerving enough, warranty or no warranty.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:9.0pt'>What is the real solution to the now current issue? If I had a 1/0 ferrule crimper I might try to actually go the ferrule route. I could look for copper pigtail adaptors or use a different type of terminal adapter that had a flat blade terminal instead of wire strands.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>It looks as though Glenn's suggestion of the Greaves Shoo-Pin would work well, as long as it is copper. Is it, Glenn? Also, Jim's Allied bootlace ferrules would also resolve this, but at a pretty steep price considering how often it would be used.<br><br>Here are two relevant posts from John Berdner of SolarEdge (formerly of SMA America) about this issue in February 2013. These are more focused on SI5048 conductor and breaker size:<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Ryan:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Not sure what is in the manual now but...the lugs in the SI 5048U are dual 2/0.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>We had to use parallel AWG #1 because we kind of painted ourselves into a corner.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>The breaker in the SI ended up being 250 Amps, the conduit fitting was only 1.5" and the wire bending space was too small for a 3/0.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>The only way to get enough Ampacity in a 1.5" conduit and that wire bending space was to go with dual #1's.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>The 250 Amp breaker was used just to get enough current for the very short duration surges without tripping the breaker (12kW per SI).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>If not for this a 200 A breaker would have been fine.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Note that the actual full power ampacity required for normal operation is 5kW @ 40 Vdc = 125 Amps continuous.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>It is the high surge loads that require more current.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I run mine with a single 2/0 and we have never even come close to hitting full power.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Worst case current is typically while charging, not when inverting, and I set the current limit so that I do not exceed ampacity of 2/0.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>In my experience it takes >= 14kW generator to drive a pair of SI's to full power while charging<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>John Berdner<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Allan:<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In my experience, the worst case currents occur during battery charging following a deep discharge. (You should see a generator exhaust pipe at night when charging hard – such a pretty shade of yellow/orange.) <o:p></o:p></span></pre><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The SI has parameters you can set to limit the maximum charge rates which should solve your concern. This is found in SI Parameter #222.01 under the Battery Settings menu</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>#222 Battery Charge Mode</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>No. __Name Description__Value Explanation ___Default value</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>01__ BatChrgCurMax__Charging current of the battery10 A … 1200 A__1,200 A</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I am not sure if this value is the sum of the SI currents or if this is actually the value the inverters read off the external current shunt needed for DC coupled systems. I think the SI uses the current shunt value (if present) but I am not sure - Check with SMA Support to find out. If it is the former then you would need to consider the Radian charge current and subtract that off your maximum allowed value then enter that “net” value into the SI’s.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As I mentioned in my earlier posts the breaker in the SI was selected to match the short duration current versus time trip curves. Since the SI can do very substantial surges (up to 12 kVA per inverter) the short duration tripping characteristics were key. As I recall the breaker was actually 2 internally parallel AMS 125 (non-standard part from Eaton). See curve 252 (DC 25x) data on page 8 of the following <a href="http://www.heinemann-electric.com/acrobat/ams-cata.pdf">http://www.heinemann-electric.com/acrobat/ams-cata.pdf. </a>Not sure what breaker is used in current SI production but the characteristics should be similar to the above.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In normal operation the maximum continuous current will be the inverter rating divided by minimum battery voltage. I ASS U ME this is where the 125 Amp recommendation for a SI5000 comes from (5000W/40Vdc). Never mind that pesky 1.25 * the continuous current NEC thingy.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>If you are using an external OCPD be sure to use a L…O…N…G time delay type and compare the short duration trip characteristics of your OCPD to that of the SI’s breaker. If your OCPD will trip “sooner” than the SI’s breaker you may see nuisance tripping of your OCPD during high surge events. There might be a parameter to limit the maximum discharge (surge) current but I could not find it in my admittedly quick skim of the SI manual. If you do not foresee very high surge loads (motor starting) this will not be an issue. 48 kVA seems like one heck of a surge but, then again, I have not seen the customer’s home.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Best Regards, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>John Berdner</span><br>General Manager, North America SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>William, the core issue of fine-stranded cables was brought out by John Wiles about ten years ago. He wrote about the issue in a 2004 Home Power Code Corner article that can be accessed here: <a href="http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/CC104.pdf">http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/pdf-resources/CC104.pdf</a>.<br><br>Allan<br><br><b>Allan Sindelar</b><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="mailto:allan@sindelarsolar.com">allan@sindelarsolar.com</a></span><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional<br>NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.<br><b>505 780-2738 cell</b></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>On 4/30/2014 12:01 AM, William Miller wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Ray:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Darn good question, especially since I will be doing the exact same thing, *tomorrow*.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I have never been clear on the real problem. Fine stranded cables overheat in the wrong lugs? Is this true for mechanical or compression?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Aside from code compliance, what is the best common sense approach to Sunny Islands with fine stranded? Annual retorquing? Pin terminals? Solder tinning the strands?????<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>I used to wrap thin copper sheeting around fine stranded just to corral the strands. Is this a possible solution?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Thanks Ray for bringing up a question I forgot to consider. <o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>William<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Miller Solar<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters <a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"><ray@solarray.com></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Hi All;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with Cobra X flex cable.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated for flex or fine stranded cable.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters. Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on pigtail adapter. It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over sized cables into smaller lugs. (2/0 to #1, for instance)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>The best I've found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the wire, right in the connection:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compression-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx">http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compression-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB0301.pdf">http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB0301.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO pigtail adapters are coming in at $40/ ea...... (ouch)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>On the internet, I'm seeing several examples of X flex used directly (no adapters) with the Sunny Islands, so are folks just blowing off articles 690.31(F) and 110.14, that specify the connector be rated for flex cable?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>And finally, couldn't SMA use a lug that was flex rated?<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>For example, Marathon makes Class K rated mechanical Lugs: <a href="http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html">http://www.marathonsp.com/NewRatings.html</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I'd use THHN, but I really don't feel good about wiring the Heineman breakers with that stiff a wire. I've cracked breaker cases before......that's why the X flex is industry standard for off grid DC.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Thanks for your help,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>R.Ray Walters<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>CTO, Solarray, Inc<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Licensed Master Electrician<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Solar Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>303 505-8760<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Change email address & settings:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List rules & etiquette:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Check out participant bios:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Change email address & settings:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>List rules & etiquette:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>Check out participant bios:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>