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<font face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Jason, this is the same
rationale I have heard before-- and sadly parroted myself before
seeing the light-- but I agree that it's inaccurate. 90.8(A) is
the only "futureproofing" thing in the NEC that I know of, but I
take it as an "FYI, if you oversize now it allows for easier
expansion later" rather than a requirement. After all, no one runs
#4 for a 20A circuit within a 4" conduit on the assumption that
someone later may want to add 38 more conductors into that same
raceway. And if you trip a main breaker with the Tesla fast
charger you just installed in the garage, it's hard to blame the
original electrician for lack of foresight... <br>
<br>
DKC <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2014/3/5, 11:04, Jason Szumlanski
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAJJtG3okh4FHAjWWGF3Xq-RDkdfq1LPqzawaAi9RYp-sNHynzg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I thought one of the
the rationale for the upsized conductor between panelboards in
series was to account for the possibility that the conductor
could be later tapped with other loads or backfed from another
PV source in theory. I never thought that rationale was
reasonable - any future changes of this significance would
need to be addressed at that time anyway.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">I have found that AHJs
are lenient and reasonable on this point if addressed in
advance. It should only be an issue in NEC 2008 and 2011 if
using a load side connection. If your jurisdiction allows it,
a supply side connection should bypass this issue altogether.
When using a subpanel to combine multiple inverter outputs,
it's often the case that a load side connection is not
possible in retrofit situations, at least in my experience.
Even on a 1600A commercial main bus where the 120% rule is a
non-factor, there are often prohibitive issues that make a
supply-side connection much more cost effective. For example,
I've run into manual generator switches or situations where it
is impractical to move breakers to accommodate the proper
backfed breaker location. </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">By the way, we've had
this discussion before. Search the archives for:</div>
<div class="gmail_default"><font face="verdana, sans-serif">"sizing
a sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter outputs"</font><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif">
(there are several prior discussions on the subject)</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div id="WISESTAMP_SIG_gmail_session">
<div
style="font-size:13px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div style="margin:0px 0px 8px">
<p style="margin:0px">
<span><span>Jason Szumlanski</span></span></p>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:verdana,sans-serif;display:inline">Fafco
Solar</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 10:30 AM, Dave
Click <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu" target="_blank">daveclick@fsec.ucf.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> I think there's
plenty of room to interpret the 2008 and 2011 NEC such
that you don't need to upsize this conductor either.
2008 690.64(B)(2) and 2011 705.12(D)(2) are both titled
"bus or conductor," and as Brian points out below the
currents aren't additive. As I understand it the 120%
rule was because panelboard manufacturers weren't
comfortable with exceeding 120% due to heat concerns
under continuous operation (assuming a fully loaded
panelboard). As for conductors, I wonder if that 120%
was just to keep it consistent with the panelboard
requirement, even though it would be safe at levels
>120% as long as you're feeding from opposite ends.<br>
<br>
Also, since you seem to be talking about a good amount
of PV with your 2 SolarEdge 20s, make sure your upstream
breakers are OK to be backfed (up through and including
the main, unless you've got a large, guaranteed
baseload).<br>
<br>
DKC <br>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div>On 2014/3/5, 10:01, Brian Mehalic wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">A very clarifying change is what
I'd call it!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>First off, rather than being based on the
actual breaker size on the inverter output
circuit, calcs are instead based on 125% of
the inverter rated output current.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>705.12(D)(2)(1) addresses "Feeders" - but
only applies when the inverter output
circuit connection is made somewhere other
than the opposite end of the feeder from the
utility supply. This addresses concerns
about whether the feeder conductor needs to
be larger due to the presence of the
additional source of supply, and so long as
the inverter isn't connected to the feeder
in the middle of it then the existing
conductor size should be okay (because if it
is at the opposite end of the feeder than
there is nowhere where the utility and
inverter current will be additive).</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>705.12(D)(2)(3) addresses "Busbars" and
allows several options, including the familiar
"120% rule" as you stated in your original
post. Also check out 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) -
depending on the load breakers in the
subpanel, the 120% rule may not even need to
be used (if the sum of the inverter and load
breakers is less than or equal to the busbar
rating).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And remember, even if your AHJ hasn't
adopted 2014 yet it is worth having a
conversation with them to see if they'll allow
you to design the system based on the new Code
- after all, in a certain sense, the 2014 NEC
is what "they" meant the 2011 NEC to say!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Brian Mehalic <br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation
Professional™ R031508-59
<div>IREC ISPQ Certified Affiliated
Instructor/PV US-0132<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>PV Curriculum Developer and
Instructor
<div>Solar Energy International<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.solarenergy.org"
target="_blank">http://www.solarenergy.org</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at
5:21 PM, Kirk <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kirk@vtsolar.com"
target="_blank">kirk@vtsolar.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Is this a code change in 2014 vs 2011
or merely a clarification? Vt has not
adopted 2014 yet. What was the original
rationale for the 120% rule to apply to
conductors in addition to a panel bus? <span><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
Kirk Herander
<div>VSE</div>
</font></span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
On Mar 4, 2014, at 6:20 PM, Brian
Mehalic <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:brian@solarenergy.org"
target="_blank">brian@solarenergy.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>If the subpanel is at the end
if the feeder, and there are no
taps in between the main and the
sub then I don't see any reason
that the conductors need to be
any larger than 200 A as there
is no where on the feeder
conductors where grid and PV
current will be additive. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The changes in 705.12 in 2014
address this in large part. <br>
<br>
Brian</div>
<div><br>
On Mar 4, 2014, at 2:41 PM,
"Kirk Herander" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kirk@vtsolar.com"
target="_blank">kirk@vtsolar.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Solaredge
20 kw, 480 3-phase. Good
point, but that may be
irrelevant. The feed-in
subpanel is also
powering unrelated
loads, which use the
neutral as a conductor
from the main panel. So
4 conductors from the
main.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Kirk
Herander</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">VT
Solar, LLC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">dba
Vermont Solar
Engineering</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">NABCEP<sup>TM
</sup>Certified
Inaugural Certificant</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">NYSERDA-eligible
Installer</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">VT
RE Incentive Program
Partner</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:802.863.1202" value="+18028631202"
target="_blank">802.863.1202</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border-style:solid
none
none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Allen
Frishman<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, March 04,
2014 4:32 PM<br>
<b>To:</b>
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[RE-wrenches]
conductors and the
120% rule</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> what
inverter(s) are you using?
In many cases the
Neutral is not considered
a Current Carying
Conductor by the
Manufacturer and therefore
you only have 3 CCC.</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">Al Frishman</span></i><span
style="font-size:13.5pt"><br>
</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;color:rgb(3,1,0)">Aeon</span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;color:rgb(255,151,0)">Solar</span><span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28917%29%20699-6641"
target="_blank">(917)
699-6641</a> -
cell</span></i><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"><br>
<i><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28888%29%20460-2867" target="_blank">(888) 460-2867</a></i><br>
<i><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.aeonsolar.com/" target="_blank">www.aeonsolar.com</a></i></span><span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On
Mar 4, 2014, at 4:20
PM, Kirk Herander
wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Approx..
50 – 60ft.</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Kirk
Herander</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">VT
Solar, LLC</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">dba
Vermont Solar
Engineering</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">NABCEP<sup>TM<span> </span></sup>Certified
Inaugural
Certificant</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">NYSERDA-eligible
Installer</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">VT
RE Incentive
Program Partner</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:802.863.1202" value="+18028631202"
target="_blank">802.863.1202</a></span><span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="border-style:solid
none
none;padding:3pt 0in
0in">
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]"
target="_blank">[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]</a><span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Ray
Walters<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Tuesday,
March 04, 2014
4:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[RE-wrenches]
conductors and
the 120% rule</span><span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>What
is the length of
the conduit to
the subpanel?
That will
determine
whether to apply
the derates.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
</div>
<pre><span>R.Ray Walters</span></pre>
<pre><span>CTO, Solarray, Inc</span></pre>
<pre><span>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, </span></pre>
<pre><span>Licensed Master Electrician</span></pre>
<pre><span>Solar Design Engineer</span></pre>
<pre><span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:303%20505-8760" value="+13035058760" target="_blank">303 505-8760</a></span></pre>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>On
3/4/2014 1:34
PM, Kirk
Herander wrote:</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Whether
or not a further
derate has to be
applied is the
killer here, as
I am working
with existing
panels and
conductors. In
an old Code
Corner(HP140) J.
Wiles goes
through a
similar scenario
and calls out
the allowable
current rating
and conductor in
310.15, but
makes no mention
of applying
additional
derate factors.
The .8 derate
for 4-6
conductors(l1,l2,l3,
& n) will
put the existing
4/0 cable
between feed-in
and main panel
at 208 amps,
less than the
allowable 217.
I’d hate to need
to upsize the
wire to 250 mcm.</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Kirk
Herander</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">VT
Solar, LLC</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">dba
Vermont Solar
Engineering</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">NABCEP<sup>TM<span> </span></sup>Certified
Inaugural
Certificant</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">NYSERDA-eligible
Installer</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">VT
RE Incentive
Program Partner</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:802.863.1202" value="+18028631202"
target="_blank">802.863.1202</a></span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"> </span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"> </span></span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span> </span>[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Jason
Szumlanski<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Tuesday,
March 04, 2014
2:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re:
[RE-wrenches]
conductors and
the 120% rule</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Both the bus and conductors need
to be rated
for 217 amps
minimum. As
you mentioned,
the bus is not
a problem. The
way I
interpret it,
the conductor
size required
would be after
derate factors
are applied.
The rating of
the conductor
is ultimately
dependent on
the derate
factors.</span><span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"> </span><span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">If you can locate your subpanel
adjacent to
the main
distribution
panel, you may
be able to use
Exception #3
to
310.15(B)(2)
by connecting
the panels
with a short
nipple. I
assume you are
just looking
at a number of
conductor
derate and not
an ambient
temperature
derate.</span><span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div
style="margin-bottom:6pt">
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Jason Szumlanski</span><span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif">Fafco Solar</span><span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif"><br>
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p
class="MsoNormal"><span>On
Tue, Mar 4,
2014 at 12:05
PM, Kirk
Herander <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:kirk@vtsolar.com" target="_blank">kirk@vtsolar.com</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt">Hello,</span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt">I have a 225 amp 3-phase main lug sub-panel
protected by a
200 amp
breaker. My
inverter
breaker
feeding the
sub panel is
60 amps. So
225 a bus x
1.2 = 270
amps. That’s
less than the
sum of the two
breakers of
260 amps, so
no issue
there. The
conductors
between sub
and main panel
have to be
rated for at
least 260/1.2
= 217 amps,
correct? Is
this 217 amps
before or
after derating
the conductor?</span><span></span></p>
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class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt"> </span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt"> </span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt">Kirk Herander</span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt">VT Solar, LLC</span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt">dba Vermont Solar Engineering</span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt">NABCEP<sup>TM<span> </span></sup>Certified
Inaugural
Certificant</span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt">NYSERDA-eligible Installer</span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt">VT RE Incentive Program Partner</span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:802.863.1202"
target="_blank">802.863.1202</a></span><span></span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
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<p
class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
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