<html><body><span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#0033cc; font-size:10pt;"><div>Wrenches,</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for your input and comments on this problem. Last week I temporarily cut in 3.3 kVar of capacitance during charge, with ancillary loads present. There was a reduction on each phase of several amps. Pulled the caps out to make a sanitary enclosure.</div><div>Went back yesterday after receiving a new main breaker for the gen. Installed that along with an auxiliary circuit breaker to control generator ventilator fans on the LINE side of the main.</div><div>Installed capacitor bank, reset all 3 inverters to 34 amps input current and 20 amps charge current. Fired it up. For the first time I was able to get over 80 amps to the battery on inverters alone. Then added solar and briefly made it to 160 before the battery backed it off.</div><div>Turned off solar again and had consistent 5+ kw charge current.</div><div>Then started measuring amps with and without the capacitor bank. Started with 4 caps, and had an increase of 16 amps load across both phases. Reduced number of capacitors one by one and ended up with 0 adding the least amount of load to the generator.</div><div><br></div><div>Current conclusion: There are harmonic loads present from time to time (one day pf correction helps, another it doesn't) that the previous main breaker couldn't handle, even though it was fine with 12.3 kw resistive load bank.</div><div>The new breaker did not trip with maximum charge current from the 3 VFX's and normal running loads. The PSX-240 on the generator output was working to balance the load of the 3 chargers and we were running about 42 and 37 amps on the generator legs.</div><div>And the 3 inverters did a fine job of sorting out among themselves who was going to charge and who was going to pass ac to loads during the process. Slave 2 dropped out of charge first, then master and slave 1 appeared to ramp back more or less equally.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Bruce Fiero-RMI</div><div><span style="font-size: 8pt;"><strong><br></strong></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 8pt;"><img id="sigimg0" title="signature image" src="cid:sigimg0@6ee0e74b032624b8f607047c239ea950" alt="" height="75" border="0" width="125"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 8pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><strong>Willpower Electric LLC</strong></span></div><div><br></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="color: #000000;">Oregon Electrical Contractor C681</span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="color: #000000;">CCB 191852</span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="color: #000000;">DUNS 191470363<br>NABCEP Certified PV</span></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><span style="color: #000000;">Trade Ally of Energy Trust of Oregon<br>Oregon Solar Tax Credit Certified Technician</span><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size: 8pt;"><br></span></div><div><strong><span style="font-size: 8pt;">"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." T. Edison, 1931</span></strong></div><div><br><br></div>
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers<br>
From: Ronald Paredes <<a href="mailto:rparedes@outbackpower.com">rparedes@outbackpower.com</a>><br>
Date: Wed, February 12, 2014 9:41 am<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
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</style> <div class="WordSection1"> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hello Esteemed Wrenches,<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">First, I apologize for the delayed reply. There are lots of great replies and a lot of good information in this email thread and everyone’s suggestions will help to remedy the problem. <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">One piece of information that might be crucial to get the overall sense of the installation is that the system that Bruce is working on has a 1.5kW load. The system has resistive loads as well as several small pumps. If we also consider that, when charging, the inverters are essentially full wave bridge rectifiers than we will have to take into account the displacement power factor and the distortion power factor of the system. Typically, single phase generators are rated at a power factor of 1, so his 120/240V-12kW generator is able to source up 50A per phase with a load that has a power factor of unity.<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If we also take into account that we typically do not want to load a generator beyond 80% of its capacity, and account for power factor and sea level then we would have to significantly derate the generator. Following that logic, and assuming a total power factor of 80%, would mean that he can only load the generator with a 7.68kW load (7.68kW = 12kW x .8 (derate) x .8 (TPF)). This would translate to a current of 32A per phase. However, since his loads are already consuming 1.5kW (6.25A), he would end up with an available current of 25.75A from the generator. <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Admittedly, inverters have a tough time with generators because of the way their synchronous clock and electronic speed control react to load disturbances. The inverters try their best to keep up with the constant shifting of the AC signal from the generator, and sometimes they are not successful. This is true of any power conversion system that is fed from a generator. Having inductive loads (however small) and having non-linear loads does not help the situation. <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">While charging, the VFX3648 inverters are essentially full wave bridge rectifiers and the master does not control the slaves. Each slave will follow its own charge parameters like the Grid input AC limit (in Amps) to limit the overall AC current that goes into the inverter, and the Charger AC limit (in Amps) to limit the AC current that goes into charging and the DC voltage set points. In that sense, each inverter simply becomes a current source. The actual amount of DC current that the inverters can source to the batteries depends on the AC source as well as the battery voltage. <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Adding capacitors to improve the power factor will help while the inductive loads are on, but will also introduce a leading power factor when the inductive loads are removed and that has its own set of problems. The best and probably cheapest approach to obtain more charge current would be to use a load transfer switch to remove some of the inductive loads from the generator while charging. This will not only improve the power factor but will also reduce the load current on the generator. <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As for the breaker tripping, I will work with Bruce to run a controlled test to find out why the breaker was tripping. <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best Regards,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ronald Paredes <br> Manager, Product Quality and Test Engineering <br> OutBack Power Technologies <br> 17825 59<sup>th</sup> Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">360.618.4316 direct | 425.903.0680 mobile<o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.outbackpower.com"><span style="color:#1F497D">www.outbackpower.com</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> <o:p></o:p></span></div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#333399"><img id="Picture_x0020_2" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CF27D1.0CF143E0" alt="Description: Outback-Power-color-TAG-2010" wbeuser="bruce@willpowerelect.com" height="79" border="0" width="173"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:bruce@willpowerelect.com">bruce@willpowerelect.com</a><br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 12, 2014 8:53 AM<br> <b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers<o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> </div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Steve,<o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Good reminders and very practical. I realize that the core of my frustration was in attempting to get a full charge on a recently watered battery that had a huge capacity for charge current, with an undersized generator that was carrying running load plus the occasional chopsaws from other trades on the job. An impossible environment for making sensitive adjustments. More fine tuning to come...<o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Bruce Fiero-RMI<o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><img id="sigimg0" src="cid:image003.jpg@01CF27D6.95BA4190" wbeuser="bruce@willpowerelect.com" height="75" border="0" width="125"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Willpower Electric LLC</span></strong><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><o:p></o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <div> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><o:p> </o:p></span></div> </div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" id="replyBlockquote"> <div id="wmQuoteWrapper"> <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">-------- Original Message --------<br> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers<br> From: Steve Higgins <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:steve@surrette.com">steve@surrette.com</a>><br> Date: Tue, February 11, 2014 7:59 am<br> To: RE-wrenches <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><o:p></o:p></span></div> <divre><span style="color:black">Hey guys,<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">The FX's have always been rough to generator waveforms, back some 9-10 years ago there was a case in Alaska that identified that they (FX's) don't play well with capacitive coupled regulators. We brought in several generators and the guys in engineering worked on a fix but never found one other than a $500.00 dollar tank circuit filter that most of the time didn't work.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">At that point anything with a capacitive coupled regulator would have to be backed way off, and would cause a really nasty flicker of the Lights/loads when the inverter was charging the battery bank.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Electronically regulated regulators work better, but the way the inverter measures ac input amperage can also be way off. I've seen the metering display 7 amps when indeed the actual current pull was closer to 10-11 amps. This is most often the cause of the mystery breaker tripping.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">One of the things I always did that worked pretty well was.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Turn the charge rates down to zero.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Start the Genset, wait till connection.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Edge the charge rates up 1 amp at a time to see how much the genset can handle.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">I've usually found that at about 60-70% of the rated current is where the sweet spot is.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Another issue that I've seen come up affect multiple stacks of inverters regardless of their manufacture. Most inverter/chargers in this market are Voltage Controlled chargers. This means that current follows voltage, if voltage is low then current is high... once voltage get to say Absorb voltage the combination of the inverter seeing the absorb voltage and the battery no longer is accepting max current the amount of current flowing drastically drops. This tends to drive customers/installers crazy on how to maximize the amount of current flowing into the battery. Remember, once you get past the Bulk Charging stage you cannot force current into a battery, it's only going to accept what it can.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">A secondary issue to this is when you have multiple chargers connected to the same battery bank. Very often if you have a quad stack of Outback's you will see on or two inverters charging while the rest of the inverters are sleeping, this is normal as nobody's products to my knowledge share charging information that will equally divide charging current between the sources.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Just something else to chew on.... Altitude will also affect how well the generator operates, as the higher you go the thinner the air the less efficiently the fuel burns.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Steve Higgins<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Technical Services Manager<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">P: 800.681.9914<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">M: 206.790.5840<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">F: 902.597.8447<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Surrette Battery Company<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.rollsbattery.com">http://www.rollsbattery.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Steve Higgins<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Technical Services Manager<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">M: +1.206.790.5840<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">F: +1.902.597.8447<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Surrette Battery Company<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Exclusive manufacturer of<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">From: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] on behalf of Doug Wells [<a href="mailto:dwells@thesolarspecialists.com">dwells@thesolarspecialists.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:03 AM<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">To: RE-wrenches<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Kevin,<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">I am curious about what you are seeing on the Outbacks as well.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Have dozens of these out in the field. They have been pretty reliable for me.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">The biggest issue that I have had with them is when the inverters are transferring from generator charging back to inversion.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">If you leave this at the factory default, 1 s, you will see light flicker, and sensitive electronics will go into error.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">This transfer rate can be adjusted down and has cured most of the power quality issues with the battery charging.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">A different issue than harmonics under load, but it might help.<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Doug Wells<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">The Solar Specialists<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Morrisville, VT 05661<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">(p) 802-223-7014<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">(c) 802-498-5856<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.thesolarspecialists.com">www.thesolarspecialists.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">List sponsored by Home Power magazine<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">List Address: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Change email address & settings:<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">List-Archive: <a target="_blank" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">List rules & etiquette:<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black">Check out participant bios:<o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <pre><span style="color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></pre> <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">This email and its attachments have been scanned by iConnection E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. 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