<html><body><span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#0033cc; font-size:10pt;"><div>Roger the 136-272 charge amps, and the theoretical max of 295 with this system. Hoping for reality of 160 - 200. Fortunately it's a 'good' customer with very efficient running loads, just a bit of a power tool habit and the hydronic heating recirc pump loads. Unfortunately, there have been 3 trades on site recently using power while I'm trying to get the battery filled up! but generally about 3x solar/useage during fair weather.</div><div>With 3 inverters, this week I'm trying #3 with full charging, 1 and 2 at about 60%. #1 should carry most of the load demands, #3 most of the charge demand. I also found a spot in the Mate 3 to set maximum charging kw and I set that to 7kw. Maybe that will help gen overload.</div><div>Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious about harmonics possibly being the culprit between a 12.3 kw load bank not tripping the breaker, and a 5-6 kw charging load tripping the breaker...<br></div><div><br></div><div>Bruce <br><br></div>
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP<br>
From: "RE Ellison" <<a href="mailto:reellison@gmail.com">reellison@gmail.com</a>><br>
Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 8:07 am<br>
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
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</style><div class="WordSection1"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Thanks Jay,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">We used to be able to figure the max charge rate at 25% of the packs capacity. That might not work with the HUP packs.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Glad you have a manual! <o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">It is always a good idea to follow the directions in the manuals!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Later,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Bob Ellison<o:p></o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>jay peltz<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 09, 2014 9:38 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Hi guys,<o:p></o:p></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">The HUP manual specifies minimum charge rate of 136 amps, max at 272,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">jay<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">peltz power<o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">On Feb 9, 2014, at 1:38 AM, RE Ellison wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Sounds like there is a need for a bigger generator, my gut tells me there is almost enough (but not quite), with 12kw to almost max the chargers and nothing left to feed the other loads.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">I have found that “on paper” and reality do not always mix well.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Getting max theoretical charging capacity from solar and the generator at the same time is sometimes a tough nut to crack, although batteries seem to “like” the varying charge better than a steady max charge. That battery can probably absorb 420 amps as the charging max using the usual 3 stage charging we have with inverters, you’re not getting anywhere near enough to max them with that generator. Powering down all the chargers 30% or so (or 1 inverter totally) would help stop the breaker trips but slow the charging off the generator. Then you just need to pray for lots of sun.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Is the solar alone enough to power the loads in the normal day to day usage in a best case situation, or is this a case of the generator has to run to keep up?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Up here we have seen 1 sunny day in 3 weeks, we know about generator usage…..</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">I can’t speak on the HUP’s. I have never used them, but might they be somewhat hard to charge?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Just some thoughts, but it’s 3 am and I hope it makes sense in the morning when I reread it….</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Later,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black">Bob</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"Arial Black","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-width:initial;border-color:initial"><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> </span></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""><a target="_blank" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a target="_blank" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a target="_blank" href="mailto:bruce@willpowerelect.com">bruce@willpowerelect.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, February 09, 2014 1:29 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Hi Larry,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">I have an FNDC in the system. Manufacturer wanted 2 hour EQ before adding water to the new battery. We got that and had SG between 1.260 and 1.275 on all 24 cells. Cells were very thirsty (shipped with electrolyte almost to the plates) and took 8.5 gallons between all cells. We aren't having much trouble getting voltage back up but SG is below 1.23 (within .01 on cells tested). Strategy at this point is to give a daily bulk and absorb and EQ every 3 or 4 days for extended times and monitor SG. Discontinue hard charging when SG plateaus. I generally shoot for c/10 charge current, and nervous about barely c/20 and a 12kw genset only giving me about 5.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Bruce</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-width:initial;border-color:initial" id="replyBlockquote"><div id="wmQuoteWrapper"><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP<br>From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems"<br><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>><br>Date: Sat, February 08, 2014 11:50 am<br>To: RE-wrenches <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br><br>Hi Bruce,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Please explain "feeding it properly". Charging any lead acid battery slowly actually preserves battery life. As long as you are achieving the recommended charge voltage (temperature compensated) for long enough time, and reaching 100% SoC regularly, you are caring for the battery.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">At 82kWh battery capacity and 6.5kW PV, the customer may have a hard time getting to 100%. You did not mention, but I HOPE you have a battery capacity meter in the system. It's mandatory if they want to care for the battery. Since the customer has a small generator, they need to realize the limitations and reduce their loads during generator time so you can use the full output.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">Larry</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:46 PM,<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bruce@willpowerelect.com" target="_blank">bruce@willpowerelect.com</a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Hi All,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">3 VFX 3648</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">2 FM 80</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">6.5 kw solar</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">12 kw generator</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">PSX 240 on generator output and VFX stacking</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Mate 3</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">HUP 1690 ah</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">System design considering 45 amp charge current from each VFX totaling 135 amps. (135 x ~55v = 7.42kw) Potential charge current from 2 arrays and FM 80's, 90 - 100 amps. On a good day, reasonable to expect 200+ amps?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Have not been able to exceed 90 amps for more than 30 minutes, with the generator putting out about 9 kw before it's 70 amp 2pole breaker trips. L1 42 amps, L2 37 amps. 5 amps neutral. Load banked to 12.3 kw (51 amps @ 240v) resistive without breaker trip.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">I have had to dial back the maximum charge current in the Mate 3 to 12 amps each on two of the inverters (L1 and L2) and 8 on inverter 3 to keep the generator from tripping out when customer turns on the microwave or coffee pot. In effect, 42 amps charge @ 240 v = 7.6 kw. At the battery, I'm only seeing 80 amps of charge current. Running loads are typically less than 1 kw but there has been a of construction going on with chop saws and compressors creating annoying spikes that are easily handled by the inverters when the generator is off.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">I don't want to kill this new battery by not feeding it properly! I would have put in a larger generator, but the owner bought the 12 kw before deciding on the new battery. I thought the 12 would be merely adequate, but not so....</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Any suggestions?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Thanks!</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC">Bruce Fiero-RMI</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><br><br><br></span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#0033CC"><sigimg0.jpeg><br><br><br></span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">s.re-wrenches.org</a><span class="apple-style-span"><span style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></span></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;text-align:center" align="center"><hr style="color:#ACA899" align="center" noshade="" size="1" width="100%"></div><div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a target="_blank" href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3697/7076 - Release Date: 02/08/14<o:p></o:p></div></div><hr noshade="noshade" size="1"><div class="" avgcert""="" color="#000000" align="left">No virus found in this message.<br> Checked by AVG - <a target="_blank" href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br> Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3697/7076 - Release Date: 02/08/14</div><hr>_______________________________________________<br>
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