<html><head><base href="x-msg://632/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi guys,<div><br></div><div>The HUP manual specifies minimum charge rate of 136 amps, max at 272,</div><div><br></div><div>jay</div><div>peltz power<br><div><div>On Feb 9, 2014, at 1:38 AM, RE Ellison wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">Sounds like there is a need for a bigger generator, my gut tells me there is almost enough (but not quite), with 12kw to almost max the chargers and nothing left to feed the other loads.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">I have found that “on paper” and reality do not always mix well.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">Getting max theoretical charging capacity from solar and the generator at the same time is sometimes a tough nut to crack, although batteries seem to “like” the varying charge better than a steady max charge. That battery can probably absorb 420 amps as the charging max using the usual 3 stage charging we have with inverters, you’re not getting anywhere near enough to max them with that generator. Powering down all the chargers 30% or so (or 1 inverter totally) would help stop the breaker trips but slow the charging off the generator. Then you just need to pray for lots of sun.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">Is the solar alone enough to power the loads in the normal day to day usage in a best case situation, or is this a case of the generator has to run to keep up?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">Up here we have seen 1 sunny day in 3 weeks, we know about generator usage…..<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">I can’t speak on the HUP’s. I have never used them, but might they be somewhat hard to charge?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">Just some thoughts, but it’s 3 am and I hope it makes sense in the morning when I reread it….<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">Later,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; ">Bob<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: 'Arial Black', sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:bruce@willpowerelect.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">bruce@willpowerelect.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, February 09, 2014 1:29 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">Hi Larry,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">I have an FNDC in the system. Manufacturer wanted 2 hour EQ before adding water to the new battery. We got that and had SG between 1.260 and 1.275 on all 24 cells. Cells were very thirsty (shipped with electrolyte almost to the plates) and took 8.5 gallons between all cells. We aren't having much trouble getting voltage back up but SG is below 1.23 (within .01 on cells tested). Strategy at this point is to give a daily bulk and absorb and EQ every 3 or 4 days for extended times and monitor SG. Discontinue hard charging when SG plateaus. I generally shoot for c/10 charge current, and nervous about barely c/20 and a 12kw genset only giving me about 5.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote id="replyBlockquote" style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 6pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div id="wmQuoteWrapper"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP<br>From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems"<br><<a href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>><br>Date: Sat, February 08, 2014 11:50 am<br>To: RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br><br>Hi Bruce,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Please explain "feeding it properly". Charging any lead acid battery slowly actually preserves battery life. As long as you are achieving the recommended charge voltage (temperature compensated) for long enough time, and reaching 100% SoC regularly, you are caring for the battery.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">At 82kWh battery capacity and 6.5kW PV, the customer may have a hard time getting to 100%. You did not mention, but I HOPE you have a battery capacity meter in the system. It's mandatory if they want to care for the battery. Since the customer has a small generator, they need to realize the limitations and reduce their loads during generator time so you can use the full output.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Larry<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:46 PM,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:bruce@willpowerelect.com" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">bruce@willpowerelect.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">3 VFX 3648<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">2 FM 80<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">6.5 kw solar<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">12 kw generator<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">PSX 240 on generator output and VFX stacking<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">Mate 3<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">HUP 1690 ah<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">System design considering 45 amp charge current from each VFX totaling 135 amps. (135 x ~55v = 7.42kw) Potential charge current from 2 arrays and FM 80's, 90 - 100 amps. On a good day, reasonable to expect 200+ amps?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">Have not been able to exceed 90 amps for more than 30 minutes, with the generator putting out about 9 kw before it's 70 amp 2pole breaker trips. L1 42 amps, L2 37 amps. 5 amps neutral. Load banked to 12.3 kw (51 amps @ 240v) resistive without breaker trip.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">I have had to dial back the maximum charge current in the Mate 3 to 12 amps each on two of the inverters (L1 and L2) and 8 on inverter 3 to keep the generator from tripping out when customer turns on the microwave or coffee pot. In effect, 42 amps charge @ 240 v = 7.6 kw. At the battery, I'm only seeing 80 amps of charge current. Running loads are typically less than 1 kw but there has been a of construction going on with chop saws and compressors creating annoying spikes that are easily handled by the inverters when the generator is off.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">I don't want to kill this new battery by not feeding it properly! I would have put in a larger generator, but the owner bought the 12 kw before deciding on the new battery. I thought the 12 would be merely adequate, but not so....<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">Any suggestions?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); ">Bruce Fiero-RMI<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><br><br></span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><sigimg0.jpeg><br><br></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 51, 204); "><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></span><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">s.re-wrenches.org</a><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>