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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Eric,<br>
Not having previously heard of Rogue Engineering, I looked them up
on the web. <br>
<br>
I would be cautious above using the Rhino-10 product you have
identified. According to the product manual for it at
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://rogue-engr.homestead.com/Manual_1950-162.pdf">http://rogue-engr.homestead.com/Manual_1950-162.pdf</a>, it is a 10A
PWM controller labelled and described as being for "SLA" - sealed
lead acid batteries. Yet its specs include a 14.8V bulk voltage -
what they call a "top=off" voltage - and a 14.1V float voltage.
14.8 is well up into the gassing range for a LA battery. Perhaps
they expect that with a 10A maximum charge capacity, the current
will be insufficient to force gassing, but these values fly
against all conventional wisdom. <br>
<br>
Does Rogue Engineering know something that the battery industry
doesn't? Or are they simply, as their name suggests, "going
rogue"? And has anyone on this list used this company's products?
<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan <span class="SpellE">Sindelar</span></b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><u><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></u></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder, <b>Positive Energy, Inc.<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">A
Certified B <span class="SpellE">Corporation<sup><span
style="font-size:7.5pt">TM</span></sup></span><br>
<st1:address w:st="on"><st1:street w:st="on">3209
Richards Lane</st1:street><br>
<st1:city w:st="on">Santa Fe</st1:city>, <st1:state
w:st="on">New Mexico</st1:state> <st1:postalcode
w:st="on">87507</st1:postalcode></st1:address><br>
<b>505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></span></p>
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</o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></div>
On 12/31/2013 2:34 PM, Eric Youngren wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACYhghL0wQm0Xq9LvPAoXo+Aa6BMhxTC2ma-cj2Ff7_f4jn-7Q@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>Thank you Allan, Dan and Ray for your suggestions.
This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for! <br>
<br>
</div>
I agree that the 75W of PV with 120AH of sealed battery is too
low of a ratio of PV to storage and will not help the
batteries last 7 years. Unfortunately those parts of the
design are pre-determined in the bid specs and I don't think
they will allow us to suggest alternatives now. We need to
win the bid first, then maybe we can suggest some changes..
<br>
<br>
</div>
MPPT would be great but it's just not in the budget for these
little systems, and like Allan says these systems won't ever
experience the cold daytime conditions where MPPT really shines.
<br>
<div>
<div>Looks like Rogue Engineering in Englewood, CO will be
able to customize their Rhino-10 PWM controllers with the
LVD and LVR setpoints we choose. I'm leaning towards
Allan's suggested values of 12.0 for LVD and 13.8 for LVR.
I am fairly certain that many of the systems will be run til
the LVD shuts them off, so 12V will ensure they will not be
too deeply discharged, and forcing them to wait until 13.8V
before reconnect will give the batteries a chance to get
back up to a full SOC before the cycle is repeated. Yes
they will experience shut-downs, but I think that over time
this approach will help them learn to live within the
capacity of the systems and give the batteries the longest
life possible. That, or they will figure out how to bypass
the load controller and run directly off the batteries! <br>
<br>
</div>
<div>I like the Midnite MNBCM battery SOC meter. It's
currently the best 'dummy light' system monitor out there
for small systems like this. We used them last year for
over 1,000 small systems powering computers in schools in
Tanzania and people seem to understand them easily. We
will include them in the systems we are offering for this
tender. <br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Thanks again folks! Lets hope we win the bid! <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Eric<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Ray
Walters <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank">ray@solarray.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I'll chime
back in on a few points:<br>
<br>
To MPPT or not: It all gets down to the budget: I find the
tipping point to be around 250 to 400 watts. My small
systems usually don't have MPPT, and as soon as I get into
more than a pair of modules, I'm using the cheaper 60 cell
modules with MPPT.<br>
I like Blue Sky's new PWM 30 amp controller that also
includes a digital meter.<br>
<br>
Temp compensation: it all depends on the temperature
variation. If its warm year round, just program the charge
settings lower, and as Dan said KISS.<br>
<br>
Metering: Midnite's Battery Capacity Meter was specifically
designed for the African market. Very simple LED "smiley
face, frowny face" reading, It's cheap, and it actually does
a decent job of tracking SOC. Its not a Trimetric, but its
way better than a volt meter too.
<div class="im">
<br>
<br>
R.Ray Walters<br>
CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
Licensed Master Electrician<br>
Solar Design Engineer<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:303%20505-8760"
value="+13035058760" target="_blank">303 505-8760</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
On 12/31/2013 11:48 AM, Exeltech wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div class="h5">
Eric .. Allan .. and all ...<br>
<br>
Allan wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Re an MPPT controller: Nope, I wouldn't. First, this
is equatorial west Africa.<br>
It's a tropical climate with hot modules most of the
year. MPPT offers the<br>
greatest benefit when the voltage delta-T is
greatest: cold modules and empty<br>
batteries.<br>
</blockquote>
*** While Allan is correct about deriving maximum MPPT
benefit when the PV are cold, at 75W per panel, and
120A-H battery, the PV are undersized for all but very
light-duty system usage. Obtaining the maximum
possible charge current will help lengthen battery
life. If two 12V 40W PV in series could be
economically utilized (vs. one 75W panel) .. it's
worth considering.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Second, any controller with MPPT is more complex,
and thus more expensive, than a simple PWM
controller.<br>
</blockquote>
*** Hence my comment at the top of the suggestion
list: "... if budget and circumstances permit...".
If not - go with a basic PWM unit and other
cost-saving measures. If they're going to hold your
feet to the fire on the "seven year" battery
performance requirement, you're going to have to limit
the depth of discharge, and also institute other
life-enhancing practices.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Re temperature compensation:....<br>
</blockquote>
*** Temperature compensation in this application may
be a toss-up between fully recharging the battery and
obtaining maximum battery life. The choice here could
go either way. If it's always warm (or hot),
compensation may not be needed. In fact, it may be
beneficial to help maximize the recharge if the
controller thinks the battery is cooler than it really
is, which in turn would push the charge voltage
set-point up a bit. Not knowing the environment where
the systems will be installed makes this decision an
unknown . Also .. and keeping in mind that there are
elevated equatorial areas where the weather can be
cool .. compensation may or may not be a
consideration.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
To me the other features of the C12 - four
adjustable settings, removable knobs and 15-minute
reserve - were more important than MPPT.<br>
</blockquote>
*** There is much to be said for the KISS principle.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Re an LED SOC display: agreed just as Dan stated. Is
there one that can be programmed to lie a little?
(The best of these I ever knew was the Photron
Batterylite, gone since around 1998. I wish someone
would resurrect that tiny gem.)<br>
</blockquote>
*** With several hundred units in the mix, I'd think a
small design house may be interested. As long as
you're at it, how about adding a low-voltage
disconnect option into the monitor design .. and
perhaps even an audible alarm (with user reset). Each
feature adds $ and complexity. If the users will
routinely look at such an LED monitor and use power
accordingly, neither of these features would be
needed.<br>
<br>
<br>
Eric .. there's no singular (or simple) answer to your
question. If the project is going to be awarded on a
strictly low-bid basis .. and they're adamant about
seven year battery life .. you're going to have
difficulty meeting their budget AND achieving their
system goals.<br>
<br>
<br>
Happy New Year to all....<br>
<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------<br>
On Tue, 12/31/13, Allan Sindelar <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank">allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Higher LVR to force full
re-charge in small OGPV systems<br>
To: "Exeltech" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:exeltech@yahoo.com" target="_blank">exeltech@yahoo.com</a>>,
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eric@solarnexusinternational.com"
target="_blank">eric@solarnexusinternational.com</a>,
"RE-wrenches" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Date: Tuesday, December 31, 2013, 10:51 AM<br>
Dan and Eric,<br>
<br>
Now I'll respectfully argue with some of Dan's
suggestions:<br>
<br>
Re an MPPT controller: Nope, I wouldn't. First, this
is equatorial west Africa. It's a tropical climate
with hot modules most of the year. MPPT offers the
greatest benefit when the voltage delta-T is greatest:
cold modules and empty batteries. No chance for the
former, and we're trying to get around the latter. If
these systems were going to a cold climate I'd agree
with you. Second, any controller with MPPT is more
complex, and thus more expensive, than a simple PWM
controller. Given the expressed competitive-bid budget
limitations, MPPT is not a smart place to allocate
costs. Dan is right about the weak C/rate. Spend the
money (if you can) on a second or larger module.<br>
<br>
Re cool batteries: agreed, although I don't know how
to achieve this.<br>
<br>
Re temperature compensation: as much as I push it
strongly here, it may not matter in this case, and may
be a hindrance. What's the annual ambient temperature
swing? Again, if it's equatorial lowlands the
temperature may stay around a constant 80º all year.
If so, TC is irrelevant. And they occasionally fail,
which can cause settings to mess up. Once again,
decide if the added cost is worth it in this
application.<br>
<br>
Re an LED SOC display: agreed just as Dan stated. Is
there one that can be programmed to lie a little? (The
best of these I ever knew was the Photron Batterylite,
gone since around 1998. I wish someone would resurrect
that tiny gem.)<br>
<br>
To me the other features of the C12 - four adjustable
settings, removable knobs and 15-minute reserve - were
more important than MPPT.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
Allan Sindelar<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a><br>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.<br>
<br>
A Certified B CorporationTM<br>
3209 Richards Lane<br>
Santa Fe , New Mexico 87507<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505%20424-1112"
value="+15054241112" target="_blank">505 424-1112</a> office
780-2738 cell<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a><br>
<br>
On 12/30/2013 7:32 PM, Exeltech wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Eric,<br>
<br>
Allan's recommendations on both points are
excellent, and spot-on.<br>
<br>
<br>
I would add the following suggestions for your
controller and system if budget and circumstances
permit:<br>
<br>
1) Use a MPPT model controller to enhance the
recharge rate under less-than-ideal conditions. The
PV is already undersized for the battery you
indicated (below).<br>
<br>
2) If you get the job .. install the batteries in a
location that will keep them as cool as possible.
Heat is just as detrimental to battery life as is
failure to fully charge.<br>
<br>
3) Temperature-compensated charging will enhance
battery life. However, the 75W PV vs. 120 A-H
battery allows for only a C/20 recharge rate at
best. This is not conducive to full recharge on a
regular basis unless the loads are very small and
are lightly used. If the budget allows for
opportunity to double the PV wattage .. it would be
wise to do so.<br>
<br>
4) A simple "stop-light" style LED voltage display
won't consume much power, but can go a long way
toward providing a visual indicator for
state-of-charge, especially if it's adjustable, and
can be be biased toward a higher SOC (in essence,
make it fib a little, and indicate a low SOC sooner
than than is actually the case). Worth considering
as an option .. but easily omitted to reduce cost
and/or simplify the system.<br>
<br>
I wish you success on winning the project.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
--------------------------------------------<br>
On Mon, 12/30/13, Allan Sindelar <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank">allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Higher LVR to force
full re-charge in small OGPV systems<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eric@solarnexusinternational.com"
target="_blank">eric@solarnexusinternational.com</a>,
"RE-wrenches" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Date: Monday, December 30, 2013, 6:48 PM<br>
Eric,<br>
Yes, one of the classic problems with small systems
and less educated users. Just a small contribution:
it would seem to me that in this case the LVD
setting is as key as the LVR. What if the LVD was
set as high as possible - say, 12.0 V with sealed
batteries, along with a 13.8 - 14.0 V LVR. The
system would still be run until it shuts off, but
the battery remains at a relatively high SOC. The
next day the system will return to operation, but
with a much higher range of SOC. The users will
still experience shutdown, and will over time become
familiar with when to expect it and how to live
within its capacity, but the battery life will be
protected.<br>
<br>
This approach seems counter-intuitive, but the more
I think about it the more sense it makes. The system
would also return to operation sooner following
cloudy weather - in fact, it would provide a minimal
amount during each of the cloudy evenings.<br>
<br>
Is the C12 still made? It would still seem ideal if
so: bulk, float, LVD and LVR, all adjustable, with
removable knobs and a 15-minute reserve button after
initial LVD shutdown. Rock-solid reliable, too, in
my experience.<br>
<br>
I'd be interested in what approach you select. This
intrigues me.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
Allan Sindelar<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a><br>
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder, Positive Energy, Inc.<br>
<br>
A Certified B CorporationTM<br>
3209 Richards Lane<br>
Santa Fe , New Mexico 87507<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505%20424-1112"
value="+15054241112" target="_blank">505 424-1112</a> office
780-2738 cell<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a><br>
<br>
On 12/30/2013 5:00 PM, Eric Youngren wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Wrenches,<br>
<br>
We are bidding on a project to provide several
hundred small (75Wpv, 120AH battery) 12V DC
off-grid solar home systems for rural villages in
West Africa. The project planners have requested
that the systems be designed and built to provide
7 years of battery life. That seems crazy
optimistic to me but I'm trying to design the
systems that will give the batteries a fighting
chance of lasting that long.<br>
<br>
In my experience with these types of
installations, the system users have little or no
understanding of how to properly manage their
batteries and usually no metering or SOC
indication to help them even if they knew what to
look for. So, the default control strategy
becomes: run the loads until the Low Voltage
Disconnect (LVD) turns them off, then wait until
the Sun returns and the voltage rises to the Low
Voltage Reconnect (LVR) setpoint (around 12.5V is
a common default) , upon which point the cycle
repeats, with the result that the battery bounces
between LVD and LVR, almost never reaches a full
SOC, and the batteries are lucky to survive for
maybe two years. After that the system will
provide a little power during the day while the
Sun is shining but the batteries will quickly
crash below the LVD after the sun goes down.<br>
<br>
So, we want to offer a controller with a high LVR
setting that will ensure the batteries reach a
full recharge after each and every LVD incident.
I know the C-12 has an adjustable LVR setpoint
and I see one Chinese brand (Manson) that can do
it. Does anyone have any other suggestions of
small (<20A) PWM controllers that can be
adjusted to not reconnect until 14V or so?
Price is going to be a factor in this project so
they need to be low cost.<br>
<br>
Any other suggestions? What would you use for the
optimal LVD and LVR in this situation? These
are rural household, DC only systems with
primarily lighting and small device charging
loads. I know that this strategy will mean that
they might not have any access to battery power
for up to a few days if they hit the LVD during
the rainy season and there is not enough sunshine
to get the battery charged in a single day. My
thinking is that experience will provide good
feedback that will encourage them to conserve and
manage their batteries to avoid the LVD situation
as much as possible. That's the idea, anyway.
I'd appreciate any advice from you all. Thanks!<br>
<br>
Wishing you all a happy and productive 2014!<br>
<br>
Best energy,<br>
Eric<br>
<br>
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