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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">I've found that instead of insulting
      them, I just let them talk about it for a while.  Then usually
      they mention what a pain it is, and how unreliable, and then I
      gently point to the various potential fire hazards, and that even
      though 12 vdc can't electrocute you, it sure can start fires....<br>
      I still walk away from some of them, but many I turn into full
      rewires.  I reuse their equipment, give ridiculous trade in credit
      on their old stuff, and then once they feel like they're being
      treated fair, I can install a good system for them,  and make a
      living at it, too.<br>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
      On 12/16/2013 9:14 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:81566D0D-1FF1-44C7-B61B-8E83735F3704@electronconnection.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>Dan,</div>
      Better he be insulted than you get blamed for the fire. I pass on
      things like this too.
      <div>Bob-O</div>
      <div> 
        <div><br>
          <div>
            <div>On Dec 16, 2013, at 4:42 AM, <<a
                moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:dan@foxfire-energy.com">dan@foxfire-energy.com</a>>
              wrote:</div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div><span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000000;
                font-size:10pt;">
                <div>This is actually pretty clean compared to some DIY
                  systems. We have a local broadcast engineer up here
                  running an old 12v DR and 20 something L16. He has a
                  tangled mat of various wires and cables on the walls
                  and ceiling of his "Power Room" at least 3" thick (in
                  the thin spots).  He recently hired us to install
                  1800W of PV on an out building (500' away), and planed
                  on moving power at 12v between the two buildings on an
                  old piece of broadcast coaxial cable at least 4" in
                  diameter. Seems I insulted him when I suggested he rip
                  it all out and start over.. <br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><br>
                  Dan Brown<br>
                  Foxfire Energy Corp.<br>
                  Renewable Energy Systems<br>
                  (802)-483-2564<br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com/">www.Foxfire-Energy.com</a><br>
                  NABCEP #092907-44</div>
                <div><br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <blockquote id="replyBlockquote" webmail="1"
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                    -------- Original Message --------<br>
                    Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Entertainment: A
                    contrarian approach to off<br>
                    grid PV<br>
                    From: "William Miller" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:william@millersolar.com">william@millersolar.com</a>><br>
                    Date: Mon, December 16, 2013 1:02 am<br>
                    To: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>>,
                    "'RE-wrenches'"<br>
                    <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
                    <br>
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                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Allan:<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Very
                          interesting, but he lost me when he asked for
                          Bud!<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">William<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">PS:  Also,
                          don’t walk into the shed carrying a rake, you
                          will fry yourself.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Wm<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
                      <div>
                        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
                          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
                          <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
                              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
                              [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
                              <b>On Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
                              <b>Sent:</b> Sunday, December 15, 2013
                              8:04 PM<br>
                              <b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches]
                              Entertainment: A contrarian approach to
                              off grid PV<o:p></o:p></span></div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div>
                      <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;">Wrenches,<br>
                        A "maybe customer" sent me this link to a Google
                        video about his Grandpa's homegrown PV system.
                        It takes a very different approach than the
                        industry has gone. Apparently it works, although
                        it lends itself far more to educated homebrew
                        than to something a company would do for a
                        customer. He told me his grandpa was an
                        electrical engineer. It's a funky homemade video
                        but entertaining. The first 45 seconds can be
                        skipped as it's about beer preference.<br>
                        <br>
                        24 golf cart batteries in a 12v system, with two
                        diodes per string to prevent uneven charging and
                        discharging;<br>
                        What appears to be about 2700 watts of PV, plus
                        two unknown wind gennies.<br>
                        <br>
                        After first viewing the video I sent back this
                        response:<br>
                        I saw the video - very nice. Your gramps has
                        created his own unique approach and has done a
                        very good job. This is the way off grid PV was
                        done twenty and more years ago, although few
                        back then had the level of knowledge and
                        sophistication he has. The industry has gone in
                        very different directions; indeed, he couldn't
                        do what he has done for someone else's home if
                        he needed it to be inspected. Unless you object,
                        I'd like to share the link to the video with
                        other installers nationally; I'd be interested
                        in their responses on seeing such a contrarian
                        approach.<br>
                        <br>
                        There was no objection to sharing in the reply,
                        but please treat it with respect.<br>
                        Enjoy!<br>
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
                          href="https://plus.google.com/105317412194765993553/posts/c9hE6GpXKAi"><u>https://plus.google.com/105317412194765993553/posts/c9hE6GpXKAi</u></a><br>
                        <br>
                        Allan<o:p></o:p></div>
                      <div>
                        <div class="MsoNormal"
                          style="font-size:12pt;margin-bottom:12.0pt">--
                          <o:p></o:p></div>
                        <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><b>Allan
                            Sindelar</b><br>
                          <span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
                              moz-do-not-send="true" target="_blank"
                              href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><u><span
                                  style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></u></a></span><br>
                          <span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP
                            Certified PV Installation Professional<br>
                            NABCEP Certified Technical Sales
                            Professional<br>
                            New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
                            Founder, <b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b></span><o:p></o:p></div>
                        <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><span
                            style="font-size:10.0pt">A Certified B
                            Corporation</span><sup><span
                              style="font-size:7.5pt">TM</span></sup><span
                            style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
                            3209 Richards Lane<br>
                            Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
                            <b>505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell    </b><br>
                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                              href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
                              target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a></span><o:p></o:p></div>
                        <div class="MsoNormal" style="font-size:12pt;"><o:p> </o:p></div>
                      </div>
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