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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I've not had good luck on Surrette
5000s actually. We had a set that was really problematic early on
with battery voltage temporarily dropping below the inverter lo
volt shut off, when a well pump was started. They have amp hours
rated at the 100 hr rate, and they seem to behave as expected when
the discharge rates are kept to the hundred hour rate. (19 amps
from a 1900ah @ 100 hr rate)<br>
For the problem set, I added another 6 v, and actually created a
54 v nominal battery bank. That solved the problem for about 5
years, but then the lo volt problem crept back up, and they
replaced the whole set at about 6 years as I recall. This was
seriously embarrassing for us, as it was an expensive battery bank
that I had touted as being able to go 15 years under normal
conditions.<br>
They're rated to 1500 cycles at 80% DOD, but again, I only think
that's true at lower discharge rates. I just never could figure
out the Surrette 5000s, and heard enough other folks having
trouble, that we moved away from them. At 10 years, I'd say all
bets are off that it's a good bank. I just had an aging set of
L16s with remarkably even cell voltages, that seemed to perform
well under load testing, totally crash, less than 6 months later.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
On 11/18/2013 6:31 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:528ABF6A.2080204@positiveenergysolar.com"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Ray,<br>
Yes, I know...<br>
<br>
Doesn't ten years seem a bit weak on a set of Surrette's best?
And the other ten cells are remarkably even. If replacement
(which is already being arranged by Surrette in a good way)
gives 3-5 more years, even with keeping a close eye on cell
variations, we have accomplished a reasonable objective.<br>
<br>
Re a loose connection: this is why I posted the questions: to
look for other possible explanations. Did you see Nick's
response: "I used to see that arc flash all the time from the SW
series relays, even on new SW Series inverters. That always
happened when the contact switched under load." I'd consider
this before pulling the cover off to look for the source of the
flash.<br>
<br>
Re the single-string issue, Steve Higgins replied very promptly
(as did James Surrette, to whom I had written before posting
here), saying "<br>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">What
you can do to save some fuel is pull the two cells out and
reduce charge voltage per cell… this means if your absorbing
at 28.8, then you adjust the voltage down 2.4vpc to 24vdc… <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
you do this you may also want to adjust the LBCO as low as
possible. If you leave the dead cells in it’s just going to
consume more fuel to keep charged."</span><br>
<br>
But we agreed that the new cells would be in place soon enough
to not justify this course of action. I have done the
one-string-from-two temporary solution many times over the
years.<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan <span
class="SpellE">Sindelar</span></b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><u><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></u></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified
PV Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder, <b>Positive Energy, Inc.<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">A Certified B <span
class="SpellE">Corporation<sup><span
style="font-size:7.5pt">TM</span></sup></span><br>
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<b>505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell</b><br>
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On 11/18/2013 6:13 PM, Ray Walters wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:528ABB3E.20108@solarray.com" type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I thought the relays on the SWs
were sealed, so visible arcing sounds bad. Are you sure its
not a loose connection?<br>
Also on the batteries, anytime I've ever seen someone replace
just a couple of cells in a bank that old, it never ended
well. It was like that gopher stomping game, and you hit one
problem, and then another pops up right after.....<br>
We need some kind of financing program for battery
replacements, so that people can get what they really need: a
whole new set.<br>
That very situation, is why I quit doing as many single series
strings: one or two cells fail, and the whole system goes. <br>
In this same situation with 2 strings, you create a single
string of your strongest cells to limp the customer along,
until they can afford to replace the set. As cells go down,
you keep pulling in replacements from the retired string. This
would be a great time to take a few of the best used cells
from another aging set on another system that is getting
replaced.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
On 11/18/2013 5:01 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:528AAA57.5090206@positiveenergysolar.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
Wrenches,<br>
A longtime off grid customer with a 1997-era Trace SW4024 and
a Kohler 8.5RMY backup generator (with 1,800 hours over 16
years) has never had an inverter failure, but requested my
assistance with a recent development. His generator has been
set up on automatic operation using standard Trace voltage,
quiet time and load-start program parameters. When it was
called to run, it would charge to 29.6 V with a one-hour
absorption, then shut off. This has worked well until
recently. The automatic operation includes a cool-down and the
modest absorption means that the AC input current at shutdown
is going to be pretty low.<br>
<br>
Recently he called me because his generator was starting more
frequently and running for longer duration. Of course, I
immediately suspected the batteries, which are ten-year old
5000 series Surrette 4KS-25PS cells. Upon checking I found two
weak cells, which would explain the inability of the batteries
to reach full voltage and shut off after absorption. I will be
replacing these two cells, which fortunately are both within
the same red polypropylene case, as our only option, as the
homeowner's budget won't allow replacement of the whole set.
As a single string, the two new cells should play reasonably
well with the old cells for a few more years.<br>
<br>
Because of this, the homeowner had recently shut off the
generator at night using the buttons on the inverter, and when
he did this he saw a spark flash from inside the inverter on
the AC end. I was able to duplicate the flash, which I assume
to be the AC2 input relay. The AC2 In setpoint is set to
maximum 35A AC. Until the failed cells are replaced, I have
advised the homeowner to manually control the generator at the
generator, using its AC output breaker to disconnect the
current to the inverter before the 108V AC default input
voltage threshold causes the inverter AC input relay to
unlatch under load. While the SW latches while unloaded and
then ramps up input current, I don't believe that it can
reduce input current to zero before unlatching when shutting
down. <br>
<br>
My guess is that after 15 years of flawless performance, the
relay contacts have pitted enough to cause arcing at
disconnect, and if not addressed, the relay on the AC board
will eventually fail. As AC relay boards these days are likely
made out of unobtanium, I'd rather avoid this failure.<br>
<br>
So my questions, please: <br>
1. Have I likely correctly identified the AC input relay as
the most likely cause of the visible arcing when the generator
is turned off at the inverter?<br>
2. Should manual control be a permanent solution?<br>
3. Any other suggestions for this customer?<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
Allan<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan <span
class="SpellE">Sindelar</span></b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><u><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></u></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP
Certified PV Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales
Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder, <b>Positive Energy, Inc.<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
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class="SpellE">Corporation<sup><span
style="font-size:7.5pt">TM</span></sup></span><br>
<st1:address w:st="on"><st1:street w:st="on">3209
Richards Lane</st1:street><br>
<st1:city w:st="on">Santa Fe</st1:city>, <st1:state
w:st="on">New Mexico</st1:state> <st1:postalcode
w:st="on">87507</st1:postalcode></st1:address><br>
<b>505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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