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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Robin had a comment on the breaker issue...<br>
I'll just copy and paste since he says it better than I can for
this kind of stuff.<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Square
D breakers are thermal breakers and are never used on PV
combiners. I am not familiar with any solar applications where
thermal breakers are used on a roof top. They would not be a
good choice due to the high heat on a roof top. Square D
thermal breakers are only rated for 50 volts DC anyway. The
solar industry has always used CBI hydraulic/magnetic breakers
up on the roof top for PV combiners. They come in 150 and 300VDC
configurations. Some CBI breakers are also used for 600VDC
disconnects up on the roof. Carling hydraulic/magnetic CX 600V
breakers are also used up on the roof for disconnecting
combiners. These breakers will change by about 5% for trip
characteristics if laid on their back. Remember when you mount a
breaker facing you and it is horizontal or vertical, this is
still considered the vertical orientation because the front
plane is vertical. PV combiners that use CBI breakers are made
by OutBack and MidNite. There are over 2 million breakers in the
field in all sorts of orientations. No problem with trip have
ever been reported to me. That is a pretty good record. CBI
breakers in the future will be non-polarized in accordance with
NEC2014 so they can continue to be used in PV combiners.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/11/2013 2:42 PM, Bill Hoffer wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAL4SeaysPqPrh5ShNm8LMq6Yowuxt5P5xt=FE=7f==wcprKpEw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dan
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hydraulic actuated breakers like the Classic Heiniman
GJ,used in off grid battery based systems ( now made by Carlon
and Airpax, since Henimans's patent ran out) it is very
critical that they be used in the vertical position as is
marked on the breaker's chassis. I know this from experience
because I designed and got UL listed the GFI breaker ( common
tripped GJ breakers with a .5 amp ground circuit, common today
in many systems ) for Trace engineering and it kept failing
the UL test for no apparent reason until we discovered the
technician at UL was testing it on it's back, not in
compliance with their own UL sticker on the device! Go
figure. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But in support of Dan's comment, unless marked on the
breaker itself, breaker operation is not dependent on
orientation. Water proof rating of the enclosure is also
another matter and the manufacturer should have specifics as
to the mounting angle that keeps the outdoor rating. The angle
can be very critical for any box that uses a lip to deflect
water (NEMA 3R rating) rather than a seal to keep water out
at any orientation (NEMA 4 or better). That is more of the
issue here along with the fact that breakers are operating at
less than ideal temperature ranges for the designed trip
levels This would be relevant to the Square D disconnect that
I am familiar with that uses an overlapping lip to get water
spary out for it's 3R rating, if it was only tested in a
vertical position than tiliting it would not be within the
paramaters of the UL listing.</div>
<div>Bill</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 9:21 AM,
Exeltech <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:exeltech@yahoo.com" target="_blank">exeltech@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Wrenches,<br>
<br>
There appears to be some misinformation getting into this
thread.<br>
<br>
The "trip" mechanism within standard thermal over-current
protective devices ("OCP devices") is mechanically
spring-loaded, and is triggered by heat.<br>
<br>
Eric mentions below that Square D breakers are tested in a
vertical orientation only - the implication being that's
their only "UL certified" position. If this were true, it
would imply the breakers cannot be used in any other
orientation. This would potentially limit the Square D OCP
market to sub-panels and other enclosures where the devices
are vertical. Inasmuch as the vast majority of panelboards
I've encountered in my 40+ years in this industry have the
breakers stacked horizontally, it would not be a wise
business decision for the manufacturer to self-inflict such
a limitation on their product.<br>
<br>
This also does not mean any such limitation (real or not)
applies to all breakers.<br>
<br>
By way of example, OCP devices work in a horizontal
position, stacked "pancake" style in a main panelboard, as
well as vertically oriented side-by-side in a sub-panel. In
either orientation, they are in full compliance with UL
489, (UL Standard for Circuit Breakers, Switches, and
Circuit Breaker Enclosures). If an OCP device *was*
positionally-sensitive, UL Standards require this
sensitivity to be noted in the documentation accompanying
the device. Further to that point, UL 489 Section 7.1.1.13
states: "In determining if a circuit breaker complies with
the test requirements, the device shall be mounted or
supported as in service and tested under conditions
approximating those of intended operation, except as
otherwise noted."<br>
<br>
Mounting position notwithstanding, a greater concern would
be the ambient temperature of a rooftop location, whereby
summer heat would tend to make the OCP device more sensitive
than necessary, potentially causing it to trip at an
amperage below that of its UL ratings. While a nuisance, a
more serious issue arises when operating the OCP device in
cold ambient conditions, whereby the device may allow MORE
than its rated trip current to flow.<br>
<br>
Per UL 489, OCP devices are tested at either 25C or 40C
ambient. Again per UL 489, if an OCP device is to be used
in ambient conditions other than those two ranges, the
acceptable temperature range for that OCP device shall be
marked on the body of the device.<br>
<br>
In UL 489, Supplemental Annex, Section 2, Subsection 2.3.3,
mechanical vibration testing is conducted with OCP devices
oriented vertically, horizontally, and inclined 30 degrees
from vertical, with all devices energized up to 200% of the
device rated current during the testing.<br>
<br>
Given the preceding, and per implication of UL 489 testing
methods, OCP devices are NOT positionally sensitive.<br>
<br>
In conclusion, if you DO install a rooftop OCP system, and
for proper protection, please ensure the OCP devices
utilized are rated for the worst-case ambient temperatures
involved.<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards to all,<br>
<br>
<br>
Dan Lepinski<br>
<div class="im HOEnZb"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
At 09:33 AM 11/8/2013, you wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi Kirpal,<br>
<br>
All Square D safety switches are UL tested in the Vertical
position ONLY, so if someone is trying to install a switch
in any other position other than vertical, that will be
between them and the inspector.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps.<br>
<br>
Eric<br>
____________________________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="im HOEnZb">Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric
| Solar Business | UNITED STATES | Technical
Support Representative<br>
Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | Email: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com">eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com</a>
| Site: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.schneider-electric.com/solar"
target="_blank">www.schneider-electric.com/solar</a> |
Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551<br>
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-- <br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Bill Hoffer <br>
</div>
161 SE Fourth Ave<br>
<div>P.O. Box 1823<br>
White Salmon, WA 98672<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bhoffer@sunergyengineeringservices.com"
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