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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Larry,<br>
I didn't mention the MS4448PAE because Hilton had indicated that
he was dealing with a 24V system and that Magnum model is 48V.<br>
<br>
I don't think that the issues I see with lights flickering in my
own home are related to either load or battery capacity. I have
1400 AH @24V of industrial cells in good condition with correct
cables and installation, and the load that makes the most
noticeable flicker is indeed the refrigerator, a small load. Not
being an electrical engineer, I have assumed that it is related to
the inverter's slow response to the poor power factor of the
refrigerator's compressor, coupled with weak filtering in the
electronics of some fluorescent ballasts. <br>
<br>
That said, years ago when the first MS4024 came out, Phil
Undercuffler of Outback, then still at Conergy, conducted an
inverter shootout to test surge/capacities of Outback, Magnum, XW,
and their older SW5548s using various power tools and other large
loads. The Magnum impressed us with its ability to start loads
well beyond expectation, but in doing so it allowed far more
instantaneous measured voltage drop, to as low as 80 VAC, as I
recall. At the bottom of this post is an excerpt from his emails
of 8/19-20/08 with the results of that shootout.<br>
<br>
There was one more issue with the Magnum, that I heard about from
a customer for whom we'd installed an MS4448PAE: he told me that
the crystal (?) used by Magnum to set frequency is not quite
spot-on, such that he needs to reset electronic clocks, timers
etc. every couple of months. He told me that he called Magnum tech
support about this and they admitted that this was the case. I
notice it too with the microwave clock, but am not as bothered by
it, I guess (the customer is a retired professional
mathematician). He told me that while he was otherwise quite
pleased with the Magnum, had he known about this issue he would
have rejected the Magnum for that reason alone.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan <span class="SpellE">Sindelar</span></b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><u><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></u></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder, <b>Positive Energy, Inc.<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt">A
Certified B <span class="SpellE">Corporation<sup><span
style="font-size:7.5pt">TM</span></sup></span><br>
<st1:address w:st="on"><st1:street w:st="on">3209
Richards Lane</st1:street><br>
<st1:city w:st="on">Santa Fe</st1:city>, <st1:state
w:st="on">New Mexico</st1:state> <st1:postalcode
w:st="on">87507</st1:postalcode></st1:address><br>
<b>505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></span></p>
</div>
</o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></div>
On 10/30/2013 12:19 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
Systems wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:FAEDC76B-79E0-4450-B754-5D7D420542CF@starlightsolar.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
Hilton,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Magnum Energy also has a single 4400 VA model, the MS4448PAE,
that operates 120/240 split phase. It can provide 8500 Watts for
5 seconds and 40 amps (line to line) for 100ms. This might start
the 3HP motor load assuming it is 240 volt induction motor and
not a capacitor start. Also assuming no other high loads are
operating. See if you can find out (letter code on motor) or
test for the LRA of the motor.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>(Allan) Battery voltage dip is proportional to load/battery
capacity. I install lots of Magnum product but I have not
experienced voltage dip with large loads starting. Perhaps it
was related to waveform and the CFL's. Magnum Energy products
are designed and built in the uSA and have been the best and
most reliable inverters that I have experienced so my vote is
for Magnum.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Larry</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 30, 2013, at 7:57 AM, Allan Sindelar <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com">allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hilton,<br>
Kevin's comments are well taken. To add a bit:<br>
<br>
Magnum are exceptionally easy to set up and program. The
user interface is well designed. A few issues to be aware of
from my experience: <br>
- All of our Magnum-based off grid systems have been single
inverter. At 4 kW, a single inverter may not be enough for
that particular 3hp motor - best to CYA with the customer on
the possible need for a stacked pair. <br>
- Magnum allows a pretty wide voltage dip to accomplish
surge capacity, so when the saw starts, expect lights to
flicker. Our CF bulbs flicker when the refrigerator starts.<br>
<br>
Our trial with Apollo a couple of years ago was probably the
single most negative experience with an inverter
manufacturer of my career. Kevin's comment that the most
basic programming required hooking up to a computer is
accurate. The computer must have their proprietary software
installed, and the hookup was necessary even to initiate an
equalize charge from an AC source. We have several warranty
replacement and takeout units on a shelf here, from two
installations (including in my own home) where the equipment
was replaced after being unable to get it to work reliably.
Ultimately, Apollo agreed in writing to reimburse us for the
cost to replace their equipment with another brand. They
never came through. <br>
<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan <span
class="SpellE">Sindelar</span></b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><u><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></u></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP
Certified PV Installation Professional<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales
Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder, <b>Positive Energy, Inc.<o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">A Certified B <span
class="SpellE">Corporation<sup><span
style="font-size:7.5pt">TM</span></sup></span><br>
<st1:address w:st="on"><st1:street
w:st="on">3209 Richards Lane</st1:street><br>
<st1:city w:st="on">Santa Fe</st1:city>,
<st1:state w:st="on">New Mexico</st1:state>
<st1:postalcode w:st="on">87507</st1:postalcode></st1:address><br>
<b>505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></div>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:EC7EE410EA8C24449CDC59F7D9080D5202050C33@affirmativecomputer.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1649" name="GENERATOR">
<blockquote dir="ltr" style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left"><font
face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Hilton Dier III<br>
<b>Sent:</b> October 29, 2013 6:48 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] To stack or not to
stack? Off-grid 240V<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Hello Wrenches,<br>
<br>
I have an off-grid client with a 24V system and an old
Xantrex SW4024. He wants 240VAC capability with enough
oomph for sometimes making a cut with his 3 hp table saw
without starting the generator.<br>
<br>
I am looking at Apollo, Magnum, and Outback inverters.
I'm most familiar with Outback. I have a couple of
installations out there with stacked 3.6 kW Outbacks.<br>
<br>
However, the Apollo marketing promises that their 3.2 kW
inverter will start a 3 hp motor. Will it actually, and
is this a good idea even if it can?<br>
<br>
I'd appreciate hearing about your experiences with 240V
Apollo units, stacked Magnums, and stacked Outbacks. I
know from experience that the Outbacks require some
hundreds of dollars of extra fittings and electronics to
make a proper stacked installation. How about Magnum?
Any comments on reliability?<br>
<br>
Many Thanks,<br>
<br>
Hilton <br>
</font>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
453 East Hill Rd.
Middlesex, VT 05602</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
Unfortunately, there are no published specifications for voltage sag
that I’ve ever seen, other than some manufacturer provided
comparison curves used in various presentations. Not exactly fair
and unbiased, to be sure. Admittedly, the equipment needed to
gather this type of data is pretty spendy; not every wrench is going
to have access to that type of hardware, so we’re somewhat at the
mercy of the manufacturers.
<br>
<br>
We had the opportunity here in our training room to play with the
major products side-by-side this past fall, and looked specifically
at voltage regulation when under surge loads. We focused on voltage
stability in unbalanced conditions – heavy surge loads on one phase,
minimal loads on the other. Voltage measurements were via two Fluke
87’s in Min/Max mode, current via Techtronix digital scope, clamp
meter input. In short, the XW had the best voltage regulation and
highest surge capability of the tested products, and the Magnum was
impressive in its ability to start loads well beyond its rated
capacity but your client better not be working on the computer when
the well pump kicks on. <br>
<br>
<br>
For this test we were looking primarily at how the inverters handled
the
<br>
inrush current of a starting surge, and what affect that would have
on
<br>
voltage regulation of both the loaded and unloaded phase. I had
heard
<br>
anecdotal tales of earlier split phase inverter designs allowing the
<br>
unloaded phase to spike wild under starting surges and we've all
seen
<br>
real world problems with inverters dropping voltage to keep the
current
<br>
up, so I wanted to see what would happen with the new XW and Magnum
<br>
products. We also had the opportunity to have FX and SW products as
a
<br>
reference comparison.
<br>
<br>
We used simple power strips in order to get all the loads to make a
<br>
coordinated starting spike, and all surge loads were on one phase.
We
<br>
locked the triggers in the on position, then turned on the power to
all
<br>
the loads with the power strip switch. Not high tech certainly, but
<br>
effective and kept us on time and within budget <span
class="moz-smiley-s3" title=";-)"></span> We reached the
<br>
limits of the turkey timer circuit breakers in the power strips
before
<br>
we reached the limits of the inverters or ran out of power tools.
In
<br>
future tests, I'll rig up a series of relays to allow us to push the
<br>
limits further.
<br>
<br>
The loads were standard contractor style equipment I hauled in from
<br>
home. <br>
Chop saw -- Dewalt 12" compound miter saw, 15 amp 120v
<br>
Planer -- Delta 12" planer, 15 amp 120v Routers -- Porter Cable
690's, 11 amp 120v, 1-3/4 hp
<br>
Air compressor 1 -- Thomas T-30 pancake, 12.5 amp 120v, 1-1/4 hp
<br>
Air compressor 2 -- Rigid stacked hot-dog, 14 amp 120v, but probably
the
<br>
second ugliest air compressor I've ever seen, from a starting surge
POV.
<br>
<br>
There were also a baseline load on both legs of two electric
heaters,
<br>
and we had two CF light bulbs for visual feedback -- it's one thing
to
<br>
look at squiggles on a scope, but sometimes the best feedback is
seeing
<br>
what is going to happen to the lights. <br>
Now I'm kicking myself, because we didn't try the same conditions
using
<br>
grid power. Oh well, next time.
<br>
<br>
Battery bank was a single 48v string of 5 year old Surrette S460
<br>
batteries, with 4/0 cabling.
<br>
<br>
<br>
Phil Undercuffler
<br>
Director, Battery-based and Off-grid
<br>
Conergy Sales & Systems, Americas
<br>
<br>
<br>
Loaded phase
<br>
<br>
Unloaded phase
<br>
<br>
Loaded phase
<br>
<br>
Unloaded phase
<br>
<br>
Loaded phase
<br>
<br>
Unloaded phase
<br>
<br>
Loaded phase
<br>
<br>
Unloaded phase
<br>
<br>
<br>
XW6048
<br>
<br>
Dual VFX3648 OB Stacked
<br>
<br>
MS4448AE
<br>
<br>
Dual SW5548
<br>
<br>
Chopsaw alone
<br>
<br>
A peak
<br>
<br>
96 A
<br>
<br>
110 A
<br>
<br>
50 A
<br>
<br>
94 A
<br>
<br>
V max
<br>
<br>
122.4
<br>
<br>
123.2
<br>
<br>
124
<br>
<br>
127.2
<br>
<br>
128.8
<br>
<br>
132
<br>
<br>
124
<br>
<br>
124.8
<br>
<br>
V min
<br>
<br>
108.8
<br>
<br>
112.8
<br>
<br>
116
<br>
<br>
116
<br>
<br>
81.6
<br>
<br>
87.2
<br>
<br>
109.6
<br>
<br>
118.4
<br>
<br>
V Delta
<br>
<br>
13.6
<br>
<br>
10.4
<br>
<br>
8
<br>
<br>
11.2
<br>
<br>
47.2
<br>
<br>
44.8
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2 Electric heaters (not metered), compressor, chopsaw, planer. <br>
A peak
<br>
<br>
127 A
<br>
<br>
128 A
<br>
<br>
88.5 A
<br>
<br>
Overload shutdown
<br>
<br>
V max
<br>
<br>
124.8
<br>
<br>
132.8
<br>
<br>
124
<br>
<br>
129.6
<br>
<br>
144.8
<br>
<br>
142.4
<br>
<br>
V min
<br>
<br>
99.2
<br>
<br>
105.6
<br>
<br>
97.6
<br>
<br>
105.6
<br>
<br>
60.8
<br>
<br>
72
<br>
<br>
V Delta
<br>
<br>
25.6
<br>
<br>
27.2
<br>
<br>
26.4
<br>
<br>
24
<br>
<br>
84
<br>
<br>
70.4
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2 Electric heaters (not metered), 2 compressors, 2 routers, chopsaw,
planer.
<br>
<br>
A peak
<br>
<br>
133 A*
<br>
<br>
130 A*
<br>
<br>
93 A
<br>
<br>
Overload shutdown
<br>
<br>
V max
<br>
<br>
125.6
<br>
<br>
132.8
<br>
<br>
126.4
<br>
<br>
131.2
<br>
<br>
154.6
<br>
<br>
142.4
<br>
<br>
V min
<br>
<br>
96
<br>
<br>
103.2
<br>
<br>
92.8
<br>
<br>
102.4
<br>
<br>
59.2
<br>
<br>
70.4
<br>
<br>
V Delta
<br>
<br>
29.6
<br>
<br>
29.6
<br>
<br>
33.6
<br>
<br>
28.8
<br>
<br>
95.4
<br>
<br>
72
<br>
*Circuit breaker tripped
<br>
</body>
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