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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">William and Wrenches,<br>
Let me play with you all a bit longer...<br>
<br>
Dan Brown's idea won't happen, as the customer isn't about to pop
$500 for a second PSX240; thanks, though. There's already an old
T220 on the inverter output to run a dedicated well pump circuit;
I hadn't mentioned that because it's irrelevant to this issue.<br>
<br>
The manual transfer switch is a perfectly reasonable idea. I have
done this before using a QO6-12L100S with two QO260 breakers and a
QO2DTI interlock. The only problems are that this too is $100 or
so worth of materials and an hour's work, and there's no dang room
for the 6-12 in the dang closet this old system is stuffed into. I
may have to take on this solution, but I'm still looking for an EZ
way out.<br>
<br>
William's comment below about not disconnecting a neutral got me
to thinking. I would not disconnect a neutral either, but let's
look at that drawing from the Outback manual again - it's at the
bottom of this message. That point labeled "120VAC to Neutral"
can't be a neutral! That's got to be a typo - it has to be "120VAC
output to Inverter". Otherwise, where is the 120V AC output?
There's already a common neutral bus shown in the drawing. I was
fooled by the typo, but was thinking of that point as the balanced
120V AC output of the PSX-240 anyway. Funny - I just pulled that
PSX-240 manual off of Outback's website this morning - it's the
2005 version, and I'm sure that's simply a mistake.<br>
<br>
William's drawing below appears to show two specific differences
from what I originally posted:<br>
1. It taps the L1 output to the FX inverter (same as to the SW
inverter) after the 25A 2 pole breaker, exactly as I asked in my
original post, suggesting that this is indeed a good solution;<br>
2. It ties to an AC input L1 terminal bus, which is of no
consequence as long as nothing else is connected to that bus.<br>
<br>
Otherwise, what William has shown looks to be functionally
identical to what I'm asking to do. If indeed what is labeled
"120VAC to Neutral" is actually "120VAC output to Inverter", then
the issue is solved. Please verify that this is the issue.<br>
Thanks, all...<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
P.S. - Chris Shaeffer's response will work; we have done that with
a single Sunny Island as well.<br>
<br>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan <span class="SpellE">Sindelar</span></b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><u><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></u></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional <br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b>, a Certified B <span
class="SpellE">Corporation<sup><span
style="font-size:7.5pt">TM</span></sup></span><br>
3209 Richards Lane<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></span></p>
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On 9/7/2013 2:17 PM, William Miller wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Allan:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">I
would not provide a means to disconnect a neutral. In
120/240VAC split phase power systems it is rarely
appropriate to disconnect the neutral.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">I
would instead have the generator feed a small subpanel. In
that subpanel I would have a 2 pole breaker feed the shop
tool. I would have another 2 pole breaker feed the X-240.
You need to make certain the direct hot feed to the inverter
is derived inside of the X-240.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">I
have been at odds with many of the wiring recommendations
presented by Outback. The diagram you included is drawn
poorly, leaving out some important exterior details, making
it easy to wire incorrectly. The diagram below (from the
July, 2008 manual) is depicted better, but as published, the
wiring is still incorrect. I have modified the drawing to
indicate how it should be wired. The problem with the
original wiring is that when you open the breaker, it
unloads only one phase of the generator.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part3.08090508.07090706@positiveenergysolar.com"
height="323" width="500"></span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">One
additional enhancement you could provide is you could
easily interlock the breakers in the gen-fed panel so only
one breaker can be on at a time. This is easily done with
off-the-shelf interlocks from Square D or GE, or it is
easy to build an interlock from some scrap aluminum angle
and a bandsaw. We build many interlocks in the shop.
Sure, they are not “listed,” but they are a simple
mechanical device that one can hold in one’s hand,
manipulate and verify intuitively that they work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">William</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">PS:
</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">I
also disagree with Outback in using black for one phase
and red for the other. In an Outback AC cabinet it is
less important, in my view, to keep track of which phase
is which. Much more important is to keep track of input
versus output wiring. I use black for “hot sometimes” and
red for “hot all of the time.” This is not to minimize
the importance to wire correctly according to your stack
plan. The plan I suggested is just easier for me. I am
interested in any comments on this idea.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue">Wm</span><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">Miller
Solar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">V/C
805-438-5600<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">Note
above number is for all voice calls.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:blue">Lic
773985<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 07, 2013 11:56 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] PSX-240 wiring question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Wrenches,<br>
Here's a small issue on which I need help. It concerns the
best functional way to wire up an Outback PSX-240 balancing
autotransformer for a specific purpose.<br>
<br>
I have somehow succeeded in transferring the wiring diagram on
page 6 of Outback's PSX-240 installation manual into this
message. This is for a step-down/generator balancing function.
<br>
<br>
The situation: 8kW 240V AC generator serving an older system
with a single Trace SW4024. The 240V from the generator enters
the PSX240 as wired according to the diagram. The primary role
of the generator is to provide occasional backup charging to
the batteries through the inverter. The specific issue is that
the client also wants 240V AC from the generator to be
available to a single shop receptacle to run a stationary
woodworking tool. The generator is not large enough to both
run the tool and charge at full (33A @120V AC / 120A @24V DC)
AC2 amps in setting, and we don't want to reduce the charge
rate, as it's currently ideal for the new HUP industrial
flooded batteries.<br>
<br>
We initially tapped 240V off of the generator feed ahead of
the 25A two-pole breaker in the PSX-240. We instructed the
customer to turn off this 25A breaker when using the power
tool (the tool circuit has its own separate two-pole breaker).
What we discovered, which is obvious in hindsight, is that one
of the generator's 120V AC legs continues to feed the inverter
AC2 input with the breaker off. This causes the inverter to
try to draw too much current from that AC generator leg only.<br>
<br>
My question: could I solve this by simply moving the "120VAC
to Neutral" output feed (now tapped off of L2) shown on the
drawing below to the other side of the 25A circuit breaker;
that is, to point 4 in the drawing? It seems to me that this
would work, and would not intrinsically overload either of the
two 25A poles of the breaker. The 120V AC output to the
inverter could in theory draw 50A; 25A from L2 and 25A through
the windings of the transformer. But this solution seems
almost too simple. What am I missing, please?<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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