<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Folks,<div>I've heard lots of good advice on this subject and as an old off-grid system designer, energy conservation has long been a field I take seriously. Generating power that you wouldn't otherwise need because you refuse to use the power wisely is just... Stupid. Stupid financially and stupid in just about any other category I can think of. To quote some redneck (but funny!) comic, "You can't fix stupid." Like Todd, I've walked away from big money clients who just didn't -and wouldn't- get it. Heresy, I know, in a capitalistic economy. I blame my Hippie roots, but I make no apology for them. We am what we am.</div><div>That said, I disagree with Eric that excess PV is a waste. At a module price of $6.00/Watt, you bet! At $1.50/W or less to the end user these days, not so much. I live off-grid and have for 40 years. I have what you might consider to be "excess PV" in the air. Ya know, if you don't take it to ridiculous lengths, there really ain't no such thing. During the high season, you will have electrons coming out your ears. As Jay and others have said, use them! Make hot water. Don't need hot water in the summer? Pump some water! Run an evaporative cooler. A freakin' water feature. Whatever. Be creative! Make your clients' lives funner and maybe make a few bucks at that.</div><div>It's in the early Spring and Late Fall that excess PV really pays for itself. What's the real cost of an hour of generator time? I reckon it's somewhere between $4 and $8/ hour depending on fuel type, size, yada yada. The heavier the consumption, the more those sorta sunny or sorta cloudy PV days count. Even if you saved just 10% of genny time during those periods, do that math. Plus, for whatever that extra PV saves in genny time, the planet thanks you -and them. As a side bene, they don't have to listen to the damn thing. A feature, sell it!</div><div>I also disagree with his suggestion to do things that <span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 13px; ">"</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-family: sans-serif; font-size: small; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 11px; ">minimizes user interaction"</span> </span>I strive to MAXIMIZE user interaction! My experience shows me that the more the client relates to his/her system, the more reliable it is. That goes triple for generators. "Did I just hear the generator start? Damn, I was gonna check the oil. Ah well, next time." Ya know?</div><div>I totally understand that some folks will just not pay attention no matter how logical it is or despite your best efforts to explain that. But you have to try. It's an important part of our job and we need to do it. With passion.</div><div>Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, but those uninvolved folks will be a thorn in your side for a long time. Sooner or later, there is a VERY good chance that they will cost you money. Believe it.</div><div>Good Luck, bob-O</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Aug 16, 2013, at 2:24 PM, <a href="mailto:Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com">Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Hi William,</font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">In off grid applications, you want to
have sufficient RE to keep up with load demand </font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">and only run the generator when RE cannot
keep up. However, having too much RE is a waste because it will</font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif"> result in energy not harvested
(if regulating), however, diversion controllers can allow the excess energy
to be utilized</font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif"> (i.e. water heating).</font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Running the gen up to the bulk level
replaces approx 80% of capacity, and maximizes fuel consumption, allowing
RE to get the</font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif"> batteries charged the last 20%.
Automatic gen start capability with staggered start voltages allow you
to target 50% discharge </font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">more accurately, and minimizes user
interaction. Try to calculate the total daily kWhrs and match the demand
with RE as </font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">closely as possible. </font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Hope that helps,</font>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Rgds,<br>
</font><font size="3" color="#008000">_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font size="3">
<br>
</font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b><br>
Eric Bentsen</b> | </font><font size="1" color="#008000" face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b> | Solar
Business</b> | <b>UNITED STATES</b> | <b>Technical
Support Representative</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a href="mailto:eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com"><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a href="http://www.schneider-electric.com/solar" target="_blank"><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>
www.schneider-electric.com/solar</u></font></a><font size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Address:</b> 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551
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<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">From:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Jay Peltz <<a href="mailto:jay@asis.com">jay@asis.com</a>></font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>></font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">08/16/2013 02:01 PM</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Sent by:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif"><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<hr noshade="">
<br>
<br>
<br><font size="3">Hi William </font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">Thx helps a lot. </font>
<br><font size="3">I can only say how I do it. </font>
<br><font size="3">I'll give the client some options, including the change
of appliances and usually the price difference makes the sale one way or
the other. </font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">Funny reminds me of the old days, only with much smaller
loads/$. </font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">Good luck</font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">Jay</font>
<br>
<br><font size="3"><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</font>
<br><font size="3"><br>
On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William Miller" <</font><a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com"><font size="3" color="blue"><u>william@millersolar.com</u></font></a><font size="3">>
wrote:<br>
</font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">Jay:</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">There are four systems in question.
In three the loads are year round and one is summer only AC loads.
The year round loaded systems have loads day and night.</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">One is a highway maintenence station
with at least 4 residences.</font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">One is a family compound with
two homes with electric ranges, water heaters, AC units (I know its stupid,
lord knows I've tried to convince them to change appliances.)</font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">One is an animal rescue operation
with heater loads.</font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">One is a large home with 5 very
small, very new, very sophisticated and frugal AC units</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">I know it is silly to move these
loads off-grid, but people do it and they will hire someone to work on
the systems. It may as well be me, doing the best I can to use the
resources as wisely as possible.</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">William</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">PS: It always happens like
this: I get a call from a client with problems. Well, of course
their expensive battery bank died and it died because of wasteful appliances.
The prescription is a new, expensive battery bank and, at the same
time, new, expensive, efficient appliances. They complain can't afford
both and they have to have the batteries, so that is what they get. Repeat
every two years. Sad....</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" color="blue" face="Arial">Wm</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br>
<hr><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> </font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font size="2" color="blue" face="Tahoma"><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size="2" face="Tahoma">
[</font><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font size="2" color="blue" face="Tahoma"><u>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a><font size="2" face="Tahoma">]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jay Peltz<b><br>
Sent:</b> Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM<b><br>
To:</b> RE-wrenches<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist</font><font size="3"><br>
</font>
<br><font size="3">Hi William</font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">I feel it's impossible to discuss without more specifics.
</font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">For example if the extreme loads are only every ( just
run the genny) so often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling makes more sense
vs cycling a extremely expensive battery 4 x day), vs year round
vs what is do able etc</font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">I would be curious to know what some of the parameters
are, as I'm sure others as well</font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">Jay</font>
<br>
<br><font size="3">Peltz power. </font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size="3"><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</font>
<br><font size="3"><br>
On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William Miller" <</font><a href="mailto:william@millersolar.com"><font size="3" color="blue"><u>william@millersolar.com</u></font></a><font size="3">>
wrote:<br>
</font>
<br><font size="4" face="Arial">Friends:</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" face="Arial">We have been receiving a flurry of requests
for design of off-grid systems where the loads are enormous, relative to
normal off-grid requirements. It is obvious that the size of PV and
battery arrays to power these loads is beyond what is practical. We
have dubbed these systems Generator/battery with PV assist, or PV assist
for short.</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" face="Arial">These systems will cycle batteries multiple
times per day. It is my understanding that the extra battery cycels
will shorten battery life. Since generator run is expected, we are
willing to increase generator run time in order to prolong battery life.</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" face="Arial">The parameters I suggest are an aggressive
load start and a very high battery start parameter. This will prevent
deep discharge of the battery bank. I know shallow discharge is not
the norm, but I don't believe shallow cycling is a problem as long is it
as at the top of the voltage window, i.e. the batteries achieve absorption
at least once per day.</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" face="Arial">We know a load start ciuld result in an abbreviated
run time, curtailing absorption period, but we are assuming there will
be a battery votage start at least once per day allowing full absorption.</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" face="Arial">Has anyone else considered these issues,
and what conclusions did you make</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" face="Arial">I am looking forward to a spirited discussion
as usual. I throuroughlyenjoy and beneift from them, even thought
the advice is usually conflilcting. Thanks in advance.</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
<br><font size="4" face="Arial">William Miller</font>
<br><font size="3"> </font>
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