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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Its alright Todd. I'm actually about
as hippie as you get. I started in PV in the Peace Corp in Africa
in the 80s doing water pumping systems. I built a solar adobe
with my own hands from my own mud. Raised my kids there. I built
electric vehicles when I realized that our energy habit extended
beyond our dwelling. In the long run though, I quit taking my
self so seriously. We're all doing what we can. Even the energy
monster of the city is actually people living together more
sustainably. Just to live off grid on your own piece of land
isn't sustainable. How can 8 billion people all live like that?
There isn't enough land, we have to live together.<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
On 8/16/2013 9:59 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:toddcory@finestplanet.com">toddcory@finestplanet.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:1376711987.79547677@webmail.finestplanet.com"
type="cite"><font face="arial" size="4">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">so sorry list members, this was
supposed to be off list.</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">todd</p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">On Friday, August 16, 2013
8:51pm, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:toddcory@finestplanet.com">toddcory@finestplanet.com</a> said:<br>
<br>
</p>
<div id="SafeStyles1376711953"><span style="font-family: arial;
font-size: 14pt;">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"><span
style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12px;
line-height: 14px;">"If the customer wants a mega system
and is willing to pay for</span><span
style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12px;
line-height: 14px;"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"><span
style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12px;
line-height: 14px;">it, why is it our business to judge
them?"</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"><span
style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12px;
line-height: 14px;">hi ray,</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"><span
style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12px;
line-height: 14px;">is it judging them? or simply
saying: </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"><span
style="font-family: monospace;"><span style="font-size:
12px; line-height: 14px;">"i do this work because i
believe in trying to make a more sustainable world...
and i will not enable waste. i do not care what these
people can afford... i care about what the earth can
afford and we already have too many people consuming
too much and teaching my clients to live energy and
resource wisely benefits us all."</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"><span
style="font-family: monospace;"><span style="font-size:
12px; line-height: 14px;">maybe it is like bob-o
said... my hippie roots, but we DO need to realize we
are all in this together and there is no room for
greedy sociopaths. mega systems take mega resources.
there is no free lunch:<br>
<br>
this is a great article:<br>
</span></span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions">http://truth-out.org/news/item/15588-power-shift-away-from-green-illusions</a><span
style="font-family: monospace;"><span style="font-size:
12px; line-height: 14px;"><br>
</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"><span
style="font-family: monospace;"><span style="font-size:
12px; line-height: 14px;">my .o2</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"><span
style="font-family: monospace;"><span style="font-size:
12px; line-height: 14px;">todd</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;"><span
style="font-family: monospace;"><span style="font-size:
12px; line-height: 14px;"><br>
</span></span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"><span
style="font-family: monospace; font-size: 12px;
line-height: 14px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;"> </p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;
font-family: arial; font-size: 14pt;">On Friday, August
16, 2013 5:26pm, "Ray Walters" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"><ray@solarray.com></a>
said:<br>
<br>
</p>
<div id="SafeStyles1376711087" style="font-family: arial;
font-size: 14pt;">
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0; padding: 0;">>
I find its also about the money. If they're expecting a
$20k system to<br>
> perform like a $100k one, then yes, move on. I
agree with Daryl that<br>
> you keep a good record by picking your clients.<br>
> On the other hand, I have some fairly wealthy
customers that don't want<br>
> to reduce their loads, and are willing to pay for
it both in PV and<br>
> fuel. They've been excellent long term customers,
so I'm not about to<br>
> be as cavalier as others here and say walk away.<br>
> I currently have a very energy minded customer that
wants an electric<br>
> stove and water heater, because she doesn't want to
use any fossil fuels<br>
> on site. If the customer wants a mega system and is
willing to pay for<br>
> it, why is it our business to judge them?<br>
> <br>
> R.Ray Walters<br>
> CTO, Solarray, Inc<br>
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,<br>
> Licensed Master Electrician<br>
> Solar Design Engineer<br>
> 303 505-8760<br>
> <br>
> On 8/16/2013 4:22 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:penobscotsolar@midmaine.com">penobscotsolar@midmaine.com</a>
wrote:<br>
> > Honestly, William, in these type of cases I
usually walk away from the job<br>
> > if the customer isn't willing to reduce where
possible. There is no such<br>
> > thing as a completely fool proof off grid PV
system. Like a good lawyer,<br>
> > the best way to have a stellar record is to
know which cases to<br>
> > take....just one man's opinion of course, but
we get approached for many<br>
> > systems like this, particularly in the
Caribbean and I have learned that<br>
> > there is such a thing as a good solar customer
and also a bad solar<br>
> > customer.<br>
> ><br>
> > Daryl<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >> Hi William,<br>
> >> In off grid applications, you want to have
sufficient RE to keep up with<br>
> >> load demand<br>
> >> and only run the generator when RE cannot
keep up. However, having too<br>
> >> much RE is a waste because it will<br>
> >> result in energy not harvested (if
regulating), however, diversion<br>
> >> controllers can allow the excess energy to
be utilized<br>
> >> (i.e. water heating).<br>
> >> Running the gen up to the bulk level
replaces approx 80% of capacity,<br>
> and<br>
> >> maximizes fuel consumption, allowing RE to
get the<br>
> >> batteries charged the last 20%. Automatic
gen start capability with<br>
> >> staggered start voltages allow you to
target 50% discharge<br>
> >> more accurately, and minimizes user
interaction. Try to calculate the<br>
> >> total daily kWhrs and match the demand
with RE as<br>
> >> closely as possible.<br>
> >> Hope that helps,<br>
> >> Rgds,<br>
> >><br>
>
_____________________________________________________________________________________<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Eric Bentsen | Schneider Electric | Solar
Business | UNITED<br>
> >> STATES | Technical Support Representative<br>
> >> Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# |<br>
> >> Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com">eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com</a>
| Site:<br>
> >> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.schneider-electric.com/solar">www.schneider-electric.com/solar</a> |
Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,<br>
> >> Livermore, CA 94551<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> *** Please consider the environment before
printing this e-mail<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> From:<br>
> >> Jay Peltz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jay@asis.com"><jay@asis.com></a><br>
> >> To:<br>
> >> RE-wrenches
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a><br>
> >> Date:<br>
> >> 08/16/2013 02:01 PM<br>
> >> Subject:<br>
> >> Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist<br>
> >> Sent by:<br>
> >> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Hi William<br>
> >><br>
> >> Thx helps a lot.<br>
> >> I can only say how I do it.<br>
> >> I'll give the client some options,
including the change of appliances<br>
> and<br>
> >> usually the price difference makes the
sale one way or the other.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Funny reminds me of the old days, only
with much smaller loads/$.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Good luck<br>
> >><br>
> >> Jay<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Sent from my iPhone<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Aug 16, 2013, at 12:49 PM, "William
Miller"<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:william@millersolar.com"><william@millersolar.com></a><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> Jay:<br>
> >><br>
> >> There are four systems in question. In
three the loads are year round<br>
> and<br>
> >> one is summer only AC loads. The year
round loaded systems have loads<br>
> day<br>
> >> and night.<br>
> >><br>
> >> One is a highway maintenence station with
at least 4 residences.<br>
> >> One is a family compound with two homes
with electric ranges, water<br>
> >> heaters, AC units (I know its stupid, lord
knows I've tried to convince<br>
> >> them to change appliances.)<br>
> >> One is an animal rescue operation with
heater loads.<br>
> >> One is a large home with 5 very small,
very new, very sophisticated and<br>
> >> frugal AC units<br>
> >><br>
> >> I know it is silly to move these loads
off-grid, but people do it and<br>
> they<br>
> >> will hire someone to work on the systems.
It may as well be me, doing<br>
> the<br>
> >> best I can to use the resources as wisely
as possible.<br>
> >><br>
> >> William<br>
> >><br>
> >> PS: It always happens like this: I get a
call from a client with<br>
> >> problems. Well, of course their expensive
battery bank died and it died<br>
> >> because of wasteful appliances. The
prescription is a new, expensive<br>
> >> battery bank and, at the same time, new,
expensive, efficient<br>
> appliances.<br>
> >> They complain can't afford both and they
have to have the batteries, so<br>
> >> that is what they get. Repeat every two
years. Sad....<br>
> >><br>
> >> Wm<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> From:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<br>
> >>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On
Behalf Of Jay Peltz<br>
> >> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 12:22 PM<br>
> >> To: RE-wrenches<br>
> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Assist<br>
> >><br>
> >> Hi William<br>
> >><br>
> >> I feel it's impossible to discuss without
more specifics.<br>
> >><br>
> >> For example if the extreme loads are only
every ( just run the genny) so<br>
> >> often vs seasonal ( maybe AC coupling
makes more sense vs cycling a<br>
> >> extremely expensive battery 4 x day), vs
year round vs what is do able<br>
> >> etc<br>
> >><br>
> >> I would be curious to know what some of
the parameters are, as I'm sure<br>
> >> others as well<br>
> >><br>
> >> Jay<br>
> >><br>
> >> Peltz power.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Sent from my iPhone<br>
> >><br>
> >> On Aug 16, 2013, at 10:53 AM, "William
Miller"<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:william@millersolar.com"><william@millersolar.com></a><br>
> >> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >> Friends:<br>
> >><br>
> >> We have been receiving a flurry of
requests for design of off-grid<br>
> systems<br>
> >> where the loads are enormous, relative to
normal off-grid requirements.<br>
> It<br>
> >> is obvious that the size of PV and battery
arrays to power these loads<br>
> is<br>
> >> beyond what is practical. We have dubbed
these systems<br>
> Generator/battery<br>
> >> with PV assist, or PV assist for short.<br>
> >><br>
> >> These systems will cycle batteries
multiple times per day. It is my<br>
> >> understanding that the extra battery
cycels will shorten battery life.<br>
> >> Since generator run is expected, we are
willing to increase generator<br>
> run<br>
> >> time in order to prolong battery life.<br>
> >><br>
> >> The parameters I suggest are an aggressive
load start and a very high<br>
> >> battery start parameter. This will prevent
deep discharge of the<br>
> battery<br>
> >> bank. I know shallow discharge is not the
norm, but I don't believe<br>
> >> shallow cycling is a problem as long is it
as at the top of the voltage<br>
> >> window, i.e. the batteries achieve
absorption at least once per day.<br>
> >><br>
> >> We know a load start ciuld result in an
abbreviated run time, curtailing<br>
> >> absorption period, but we are assuming
there will be a battery votage<br>
> >> start at least once per day allowing full
absorption.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Has anyone else considered these issues,
and what conclusions did you<br>
> make<br>
> >><br>
> >> I am looking forward to a spirited
discussion as usual. I<br>
> >> throuroughlyenjoy and beneift from them,
even thought the advice is<br>
> >> usually conflilcting. Thanks in advance.<br>
> >><br>
> >> William Miller<br>
> >><br>
> >>
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> >>
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> >> List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
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