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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Allen:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">If you divide
<b>20%</b> (<i>what’s left to charge after bulk</i>) by <b>50%</b> (<i>the <u>average</u> available absorb amps</i>) it is
<b>.4</b> it’s not the average. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">By way of further explanation, I would suggest reading the Rolls/Surrette Battery User Manual Page 11 as it gives a pretty good explanation of “bulk” and “absorb” charge rates and
calculations. The manual is consistent with the best practice we have always used with batteries.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Over the years we have never had the problems that others have had with batteries. I am a firm believer that most of the battery problems that our industry experiences just stems
from two basic causes;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Multiple parallel strings. Which can be correctly dealt with, but usually is not
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"">
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">Improper charge parameters. Undercharging i.e. low charge voltage and short absorb times.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif"">Tom Duffy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:#009900">Senior Solar Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif""><img width="244" height="101" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image003.png@01CE8861.1646D870" alt="Real-logo-X-195"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:#006600">Toll Free 888-895-8179<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:#006600"><a href="mailto:tom@thesolar.biz"><u>tom@thesolar.biz</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:#CC6600">Customer Service and Accounting
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:maroon">SKYPE:
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif""> thesolarbiz</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2013 5:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Tom,<br>
Except that absorb starts off at 100% of the available amps, not 50%. Absorb starts as soon as bulk reaches the bulk voltage setpoint. It starts out at the same current as was available in bulk, then ramps back incrementally as the batteries continue to approach
full, allowing only as much of the available current to flow to the batteries as is necessary to maintain the voltage setpoint plus loads.<br>
<br>
On the finishing end, absorb doesn't have much to do with available amps. Rather, it either completes a timed cycle, with no particular control of the available amps except as regulated as above, or it switches to float when the amps necessary to maintain the
bulk (a.k.a. absorption) voltage drops below a threshold, typically 2% of bank capacity.<br>
<br>
And finally, the midpoint between 20 and 50 is 35, not 40.<br>
<br>
Given that these principles form the basis of your definitive .42 figure, this number sounds pretty arbitrary. Is there anything more you can say by way of explanation?<br>
Thanks, Allan<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><u><span style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></u></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional <br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b>, a Certified B Corporation</span><sup><span style="font-size:7.5pt">TM</span></sup><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
3209 Richards Lane<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt"></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 7/23/2013 7:57 AM, Tom Duffy wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Jay<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Sorry I should have explained that too... Absorb starts off at around 50% of the available amps and tapers down to around 20% So I divided 20 by 50 = .40 there's a 5% loss factor hence .42<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Tom Duffy<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Senior Solar Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Toll Free 888-895-8179<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:tom@thesolar.biz"><u>tom@thesolar.biz</u></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Grid tie sales 888-895-7847 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Other Product Sales 888-895-9612 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Shipping and Receiving 888-895-6497 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Tech Support 888-895-8179<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SKYPE: thesolarbiz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><u>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></a>] On Behalf Of Jay Peltz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 1:27 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: RE-wrenches<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi Tom<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Where did you get the .42 from?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Jay<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Peltz power <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent from my iPhone<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:04 AM, Tom Duffy <a href="mailto:Tom@thesolar.biz"><u><Tom@thesolar.biz></u></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Drake<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Keep the absorb rate recommended for the CC. The trimetric strays over <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>time and will become accurate again when you overcharge (equalize)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>The math:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Amp hours of battery @ 20 hour rate divided by max charge available in <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>amps, from whatever you using to charge (solar or inverter/charger) <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Times .42 = absorb time in hours<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>i.e. your system 980 watts, 980 divided by 28.8 (average volts) = 34 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>amps max charge<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>370 AH divided by 34 = 10.88 X .42 = 4.57 round up to 4.6 hours absorb <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>time for the CC Your inverter VFX3524 max charge 85 amps... 370 <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>divided by 85 = 4.35 X .42 = 1.82 absorb time for the inverter/charger <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>when running generator<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Tom Duffy<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Senior Solar Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Toll Free 888-895-8179<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:tom@thesolar.biz"><u>tom@thesolar.biz</u></a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Customer Service and Accounting 888-895-6810 Grid tie sales <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>888-895-7847 Off Grid sales 888-895-4058 Other Product Sales <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>888-895-9612 Central America Sales (Panama) 507-6-126-1253 Shipping <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and Receiving 888-895-6497 Tech Support 888-895-8179<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SKYPE: thesolarbiz<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></a> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><u>mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></a>] On Behalf Of Drake<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 10:04 AM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: RE-wrenches<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trojan L-16s<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi Larry,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I will bump up the absorb voltage to 29.6 V. How long do you think the bank should stay in absorb at that rate? The bank now seems healthy, with the bad battery replaced. It does accept charge, without going high prematurely. The max charge rate from the array is around C/10. The system can also be fast charged from a Honda 6500 inverter generator through the Outback 3524 VFX.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>We have a Trimetric meter on the system. The discrepancy between the percent charge and the voltage is what demonstrated that we had a problem.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Drake<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>At 09:30 PM 7/19/2013, you wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Hi Drake,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>It always concerns me when I hear that a battery bank reaches absorb <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>setting very quickly. It typically means one of two things: very few <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>AH were removed from the bank; the battery bank has sulfated cells <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>due to chronic undercharging. Far too often I find the latter to be true.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Healthy batteries will accept current and hold the charge voltage <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>down with a fairly linear, slow climb to absorption voltage. Sulfated <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>batteries do not accept current well which allows voltage to climb <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>rapidly as the battery presents little load on the charging system. <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I'm not sure how this plays into your original post about a bad cell <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>but it seemed worth mentioning.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>My opinion is to aggressively charge, by using higher voltage, large <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>flooded batteries. This is especially true when the PV system is <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>moderate or undersized. 29.6 volts is what Trojan recommends. You can <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>go as high as 32 volts on the L-16's but make sure the temperature <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>compensation is installed properly and working. You will use more water.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>One last comment, I highly recommend that ALL off grid systems have a <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>battery capacity monitor installed. It's kind of like flying an <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>airplane without a fuel gauge...it might not end in disaster.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Larry Crutcher<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Starlight Solar Power Systems<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>On Jul 18, 2013, at 1:11 PM, Drake<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org"><u><drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org></u></a> wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Tom,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>The batteries usually reach absorb voltage shortly after the sun hits <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the array. The reason the bank wasn't working correctly is that one <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>cell was dead in one of the batteries.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>I could increase the absorb time to 4.6 hours and the voltage to <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>29.6, especially since the bank has a new battery. That is longer and <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>higher than I'd previously heard recommended.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>What would be the effect on water<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>consumption? How did you calculate the absorb time?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Drake<o:p></o:p></pre>
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